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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
As an army soldier, I was taught in basic training to "take cover" upon recognition of an immediate armed threat.

The two innocent men shot at the church by the gunman should have went down immediately upon spotting
the shotgun come out of the overcoat.

 

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Depends on the state laws. But i see your point.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Depends on the state laws. But i see your point.
There are no state laws against ducking for cover while perceiving an immediate threat. The black man in the suit to whom the gunman spoke immediately before drawing his short shotgun had all day long to duck before taking the deadly pellets. Falling to the floor suddenly will make you a more difficult target. That man, Jack Wilson, who took the bad guy one shot in the head with his handgun was a pretty damn good shot with a pistol. He must have been 10-15 yards away. He was pretty brave too.

The American public school system shoud conduct gun drills they way they conduct fire, tornado and earthquake drills.
 

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Oh my misreading. I thought you said take over. Sorry about that, Yes agreed take cover and go from there.
 
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As an army soldier, I was taught in basic training to "take cover" upon recognition of an immediate armed threat.

The two innocent men shot at the church by the gunman should have went down immediately upon spotting
the shotgun come out of the overcoat.

I agree, taking cover, duck and run for cover give you a bit more time and makes you a more difficult target for a gunman like the situation at the church. But, since most of those people probably had little or no military background, that would not be an immediate response in the momentary shock of an event like that unfolding right in front of them. And, to make things worse, folks typically do not go to worship with thoughts of how to deal with an armed assailant in the congregation. To a degree, practice drills and reminders can be utilized to increase people’s awareness, but the shock of reality still will have an effect on many, just as it does with military folks too; a surprise attack is an effective tactical move to gain advantage that works well even on trained armies/soldiers, even more on untrained civilians. Many churches have implemented better procedures to protect against attack, as mine has too. In addition we talk about it from time to time in order to remind everyone how to react should an active shooter situation arise at our church and there are a few of us armed every Sunday. But, of course, this is not simply about churches.

Overall, Americans have become rather comfortable with the peace we have enjoyed on our home soil for a long time. That comfort has become complacency to a degree and we are not ready for an attack...of any kind. Teaching/training is needed along with stopping the idiotic anti-gun rhetoric and the slow but steady disarming of America. For those who have the training and understanding of how to respond to this sort of hatred it is paramount that we work to help our families, friends and neighbors become more aware and able to respond to situations; it is easy to point out what is wrong, but we ought to be part of a solution.

As a pastor in our community my calling is for the spiritual well being of folks, but I think caring for folks also means helping them to learn how to respond to all kinds of situations. Having spent a lot of years as an NRA certified instructor, I still work to teach people here how to safely handle and effectively use handguns for their defense as much as I am able. I also work to help them learn more advanced techniques of firing from cover in various positions and combat reloads etc. for those who desire. I am only giving them the beginnings of training, but my hope is that through this it might save one more life someday.

But, all too often, experienced shooters and ex military stand aloof and observe what people do wrong, but fail to try to help them learn. I am not pointing a finger here, just observing that there is much to be done and there is much knowledge and experience that can be shared to help people grow in their capacity to respond to ugly situations.
 

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What should your first reaction be whenever you spot someone with a weapon in public?
As an army soldier, I was taught in basic training to "take cover" upon recognition of an immediate armed threat.



While I would tend to agree there's something wrong here. What are you trying to get at OP? What is your def of "immediate armed threat"? Even though I'm in Connecticut I see people carrying firearms here from time to time of all races n walks of life. Would they be "immediate armed threat"? Should I, or nyone for that matter, be ducking for cover and calling 911 or pull his firearm or even start shooting? Are you condoning this action if one is to see someone with a firearm?

Those two men were in very close proximity and action (perp) to reaction (two men) will always be slower. "Sucker punch" comes would fit here. One gentleman (God bless him) tried to react though his firearm was in the small of his back cover by cloths. Not everyone fits the bill of tall dark evil and scary, just look the popular shooting the politicians and news media wont let go.

Please explain your position.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
My position is obvious. I see a shotgun come out of a coat in church, I hit the ground like there's no tomorrow perhaps shouting GUN! at the same time. A gun's coming out from hiding on one's person in church all the sudden is a pretty abnormal circumstance, don't you think? Mr. McGraw, have you thought what you might have done in that scenario if you were standing where that black man in the suit was standing near the gunman? I thought about what I would do: drop down, flat, like last week. Maybe the poor black man in the suit who was gunned down was blind.

What law-abiding person would hide a shotgun under his coat anyway?

My thread here is to educate people how to survive.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I agree, taking cover, duck and run for cover give you a bit more time and makes you a more difficult target for a gunman like the situation at the church. But, since most of those people probably had little or no military background, that would not be an immediate response in the momentary shock of an event like that unfolding right in front of them. And, to make things worse, folks typically do not go to worship with thoughts of how to deal with an armed assailant in the congregation. To a degree, practice drills and reminders can be utilized to increase people’s awareness, but the shock of reality still will have an effect on many, just as it does with military folks too; a surprise attack is an effective tactical move to gain advantage that works well even on trained armies/soldiers, even more on untrained civilians. Many churches have implemented better procedures to protect against attack, as mine has too. In addition we talk about it from time to time in order to remind everyone how to react should an active shooter situation arise at our church and there are a few of us armed every Sunday. But, of course, this is not simply about churches.

Overall, Americans have become rather comfortable with the peace we have enjoyed on our home soil for a long time. That comfort has become complacency to a degree and we are not ready for an attack...of any kind. Teaching/training is needed along with stopping the idiotic anti-gun rhetoric and the slow but steady disarming of America. For those who have the training and understanding of how to respond to this sort of hatred it is paramount that we work to help our families, friends and neighbors become more aware and able to respond to situations; it is easy to point out what is wrong, but we ought to be part of a solution.

As a pastor in our community my calling is for the spiritual well being of folks, but I think caring for folks also means helping them to learn how to respond to all kinds of situations. Having spent a lot of years as an NRA certified instructor, I still work to teach people here how to safely handle and effectively use handguns for their defense as much as I am able. I also work to help them learn more advanced techniques of firing from cover in various positions and combat reloads etc. for those who desire. I am only giving them the beginnings of training, but my hope is that through this it might save one more life someday.

But, all too often, experienced shooters and ex military stand aloof and observe what people do wrong, but fail to try to help them learn. I am not pointing a finger here, just observing that there is much to be done and there is much knowledge and experience that can be shared to help people grow in their capacity to respond to ugly situations.

Yes, America used to be in much more innocent times. There was a time when I thought terrorist bombings (save for the KKK bombings of black churches in the South during the 1960's) only occured in places like The Middle East and Britain. The Arabs, the Palestinians and the Irish Republican Army were always the bad guys on world news as well as the Communists. Yes, I was spoiled as an American raised in a Leave-It-To-Beaver neighborhood with all that relative peace we've enjoyed for so long. The Oklahoma City Bombing, Columbine and 9/11 were the ultimate wake-up call.
 

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It's always easy to armchair quarterback as hindsight is 20/20. There are a couple of components in the aftermath analysis of the shooting. This is not anything I got from a book or class it's just my analysis and opinion. The technical and the emotional component. There's cover and concealment and there is a difference. The black gentleman, lets refer to him by name, Tony Wallace, was 64. It looks like he was distracted by a question. Possibly "excuse me where are the bathrooms" "They're over there through those doors."

As i think about what I would have done hitting the dirt does not come to mind. Terms like sitting duck and point blank range come to mind. I think ducking would be his worse choice. He would still get shot. Talking to him would be my option in trying to talk him out of shooting or distracting him giving me time to think about rushing him. You could easily say that would never work and I may be inclined to agree but it's doing something with a low percentage of success versus doing nothing or something with a lower chance of success.

The other gentleman that got shot, Richard White 67, was drawing his gun while getting shot. Dropping to the ground or seeking cover or concealment would have delayed a response and made it more difficult to draw. So his choice I believe was prudent. The fact is the shooter got the drop on them and they were outgunned. Rich probably believed he was saving his fellow parishioners and I believe he did. It cost him his life but if we could have a conversation with him from the great beyond I think he would say he would do the same thing all over again. I'm guessing Tony would say that too. It's always sad for those left behind but they are in a better place.
 

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I might agree if there was something between the church shooter and the victims but there was nothing that i could see but empty space. How would hitting the deck make you less vulnerable?
 

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The American public school system should conduct gun drills they way they conduct fire, tornado and earthquake drills.
Have you WATCHED how these schools conduct these drills? Teachers and Administration are so busy taking attendance and dicking around, that if a disaster should happen,
they're the ones who will be to blame for children getting hurt. These anal retentive nitwits are FAR more concerned with a perfect headcount, than
the general safety of the masses of students they are trying to "save".

There was an evacuation drill for a school near a Nuclear Power Station. TWO HOURS, loading kids on buses. If the reactor ever really breached, these kids eyes would be melting out of their sockets, from gamma radiation, while some moron teacher was counting heads. Here's an idea, get the kids ON THE BUS FAST! TAKE ATTENDANCE, while you're HAULING ASS UP THE ROAD, AWAY FROM THE MELTING CORE. HELLO!
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
I might agree if there was something between the church shooter and the victims but there was nothing that i could see but empty space. How would hitting the deck make you less vulnerable?
Hitting the deck would mean the gunman would have to take TIME to readjust his aim. He might pepper my back with a few pellets but I might have better chance to survive. Stalling the gunman for time, each and every second counts, buys more time for a good armed person in the church to possibly counter the gunman. The fallen two gentlemen in the church probably already knew there were designated men there armed for security. It's is rather awkward to get a good lethal aim on a person lying on the ground face down. It might also make sense to clutch your chest with your hand while on the ground to fake a heart attack whole groaning: this might baffle the gunman stalling his trigger finger for even more time.

Why do possums play dead in nature when confronted by an enemy?

It's too late to save those men who died in that church now but perhaps American civilians now need survival training for such circumstances since these shootings are so common these days.
 

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There was no aiming, he fired from the hip at pretty much point blank range. How long would it have taken to drop the muzzle to the floor and fire? Pepper your back with a few pellets? Point blank range with a 12 gauge would have done the same to his back as it did the front, killed him. Again i would agree with you if there was something between them other than 4 feet or air. The mistakes were made prior to him drawing the shotgun. They knew something was up with this guy and probably should have confronted him before he he drew his shotgun being he was acting strange and had a dollar store disguise on. Many people who are religious and attend church tend to be more trusting and give the benefit of doubt to people which is probably why they didn't. After he drew his shotgun i don't think there was much more that could have been done other than what they did.

Oh and possums don't play dead. They will generally run away or hiss and bare their teeth when corned and even fight back. They usually will "play dead" when surprised but it's actually them being so frightened they go into a catatonic state.
 

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My position is obvious. I see a shotgun come out of a coat in church, I hit the ground like there's no tomorrow perhaps shouting GUN! at the same time. A gun's coming out from hiding on one's person in church all the sudden is a pretty abnormal circumstance, don't you think? Mr. McGraw, have you thought what you might have done in that scenario if you were standing where that black man in the suit was standing near the gunman? I thought about what I would do: drop down, flat, like last week. Maybe the poor black man in the suit who was gunned down was blind.

What law-abiding person would hide a shotgun under his coat anyway?

My thread here is to educate people how to survive.
No need in trying to be sarcastically cute with "Mr. McGraw". No, your post position was not obvious clear. Besides its someone's Right to carry a shotgun under their cloths and if a law abiding person feels like he should carry one like that for self defense, then its his right. I miss the point on "Maybe the poor black man in the suit who was gunnned down was blind". Now if they start shooting at random people that's a different issue. Yet you want to drop on the ground and lay flat when someone pulls a shotgun out in close proximity looking to shoot you. Ok, to each his own.
 

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What should your first reaction be whenever you spot someone with a weapon in public?
Unless they are acting strange, you shouldn't think anything about it. It's a free country and bearing arms is a Constitutionally protected, God-given right.
 

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I would have more suspicion of a person that is over dressed in our weather. What are they hiding, how are they acting what are their surroundings. These are my questions, here it is not strange to see a holstered pistol. As for church members we view our church as an extension of our home. Should they have reacted different, that depends on your training or lack of training and your state of mind at that point in time. At our church we have our security team and system in place.
 

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EVRYONE is sounding paranoid.must be the corona virus effecting our thinking.
I, too, sensed some paranoia too.
Around here not unusual for people to conceal carry or open carry.
When I notice, My habit is to do a quick assessment - No threat, go about my business.

So far only second take I've done was a guy, I didn't know,
open carrying a nice 1911 with these beautiful stag grips!
 
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