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Ancient Gaseous Emanation
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AWR HAWKINS
13 Aug 2019


While universal background checks are pushed as a response to the El Paso and Dayton shooting attacks, it should be remembered that such checks are unenforceable without a gun registry.

In other words, once such checks are in place, it is only a matter of time before lawmakers — in one party or the other — suggest a loose registration scheme. They will most likely do this in the days after the first mass public attack that occurs once universal background checks are the law of the land.

Think about it — universal background checks presume that the government knows about every gun sale, everywhere, at every time. That is the very meaning of the “universal” system — that all sales are covered by one background check.

The problem is that the government does not know where the vast majority of guns are at this very moment. Thus, as mass public attacks and/or high-profile shootings continue, they will claim we need a registry so the government knows where every gun is and can, therefore, know if any gun is changing hands without a background check.

We saw this scenario play out in California where universal background checks were adopted in the early 1990s. That state now has firearm registration requirements and a confiscation law as well. Moreover, California has a ten-day waiting period on gun purchases, a requirement that would-be gun buyers first get a gun safety certificate from the state, a one-handgun-a-month purchase limit, a minimum firearm purchase age of 21 years, a ban on campus carry, gun controls on ammunition sales, and more.

The lesson: It is all downhill once gun controllers secured universal background checks.

Another important point is that universal background checks will not stop mass public attacks. After all, Democrats pushed such checks in the wake of the Orlando Pulse shooting, but that shooter passed a background check for his guns. Gun controllers made the same push after the Las Vegas shooting, but that shooter passed a check for all his firearms as well. And the same goes for the Aurora movie theater attacker, the Parkland high school attacker, the Virginia Beach shooter, the Gilroy Garlic Festival shooter, and on and on.

So universal background checks may sound emotionally satisfying, but they will not stop attacks. However, they will lead to more gun control and lots of it.




https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...background-checks-unenforceable-gun-registry/
 
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I've been saying this for years. I often ask people in news story comments when they are ranting about universal BG checks how they are enforced and the comments are sometimes very funny. Many people think guns are already registered because of back ground checks. I had one guy ask me if i ever seen the movie red dawn where they went to a gun shop to get the 4473 forms to find out where the guns are. In other words they can be tracked after a crime takes place(if the weapon is recovered) but the law does nothing to stop crime.....
 

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A background check should be just that, a back ground check. They run a check at the police station once every ten years. Once you pass that check, what difference does it make what kind of gun you buy? Ether you’re approved to own a gun or not. In NJ we get our Fire Arms purchaser’s card. With that card you can buy any and as many long guns as you want. They run the NICS check at time of purchase but that’s as far as it should go. No other information is needed by anyone. To purchase a handgun, you need a separate permit for every one. You can only buy one every 30 days. Again why is there any need to identify what gun I’m buying? Why do I need a different permit? Ether I’m safe to own a gun or not.
 

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I agree Stamps6
A drivers license works that way.
You do the paper work and qualify and you can drive for years. If anything happens in those years they will restrict or remove the license.
 

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If a background check were truly just for the purpose of keeping bad people from buying firearms, the 4473 would not
require the make/model/serial number of the firearm being bought. Once there is a written (now almost 100% electronic)
record of who owns what, it never goes away. The registry already exists. If you believe otherwise, you are niave or
in denial.
 

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If a background check were truly just for the purpose of keeping bad people from buying firearms, the 4473 would not
require the make/model/serial number of the firearm being bought. Once there is a written (now almost 100% electronic)
record of who owns what, it never goes away. The registry already exists. If you believe otherwise, you are niave or
in denial.



Yes but the registry is spread around to every gunshop in the U.S., not at the ATF. They don't get the make, model and serial number during the BG check.
 

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Yes but the registry is spread around to every gunshop in the U.S., not at the ATF. They don't get the make, model and serial number during the BG check.
The ATF may not get it, but it isn't just in a file cabinet at my local FFL. When I buy a gun, I fill out the 4473. Dealer enters that data--including make/model/serial number--into an online form. Here in Oregon that is through the State Police. State police do the NICS check, approve or deny the sale. So that make/model/serial number info tied to my name and address are out there in dataland. Police are SUPPOSED to delete that data after a period of time. You think they do? FYI we have had universal background checks here in Oregon for a few years now. You can't even loan your neighbor a deer rifle legally without background checks.
 

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A background check should be just that, a back ground check. They run a check at the police station once every ten years. Once you pass that check, what difference does it make what kind of gun you buy? Ether you’re approved to own a gun or not. In NJ we get our Fire Arms purchaser’s card. With that card you can buy any and as many long guns as you want. They run the NICS check at time of purchase but that’s as far as it should go. No other information is needed by anyone. To purchase a handgun, you need a separate permit for every one. You can only buy one every 30 days. Again why is there any need to identify what gun I’m buying? Why do I need a different permit? Ether I’m safe to own a gun or not.
Some people get a CC permit for this reason, but FFL's that use a computer system for records, such as Walmart the gov can access the records online without a warrant. Unfortunately my favorite LGS also uses the same system, as far as he knows they have not been electronically audited. The computer system while good for FFL's makes it very fast for BATF to research records.
 

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Yes but the registry is spread around to every gunshop in the U.S., not at the ATF. They don't get the make, model and serial number during the BG check.
That is all recorded on the 4473 which in many LGS can be accessed online almost immediately. About as fast as doing a google search. There is in fact a sudo registry of guns purchased from a FFL.
 

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A background check should be just that, a back ground check. They run a check at the police station once every ten years. Once you pass that check, what difference does it make what kind of gun you buy? Ether you’re approved to own a gun or not. In NJ we get our Fire Arms purchaser’s card. With that card you can buy any and as many long guns as you want. They run the NICS check at time of purchase but that’s as far as it should go. No other information is needed by anyone. To purchase a handgun, you need a separate permit for every one. You can only buy one every 30 days. Again why is there any need to identify what gun I’m buying? Why do I need a different permit? Ether I’m safe to own a gun or not.
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this. A background check should be nothing more than a memory. Asking the government to just lighten the load on us instead of removing the load some how just seems to acknowledge that they have a right to put the load on us in the first place.

NICS checks are far more than it should go. NICS checks with state checks is far more to the second power.
 

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I've been saying this for years. I often ask people in news story comments when they are ranting about universal BG checks how they are enforced and the comments are sometimes very funny. Many people think guns are already registered because of back ground checks. I had one guy ask me if i ever seen the movie red dawn where they went to a gun shop to get the 4473 forms to find out where the guns are. In other words they can be tracked after a crime takes place(if the weapon is recovered) but the law does nothing to stop crime.....
Several years ago, in Oklahoma, there was a teenage girl (maybe two) killed with a .40 handgun. The Oklahoma Highway Patrol went to all the area gunshops and got all records of sales of .40 caliber handguns. They contacted every owner and demanded that they show up to have their handguns tested. Many did show up, many refused and got more threatening letters but, as far as I know, no one was prosecuted for not showing up.
 

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The ATF may not get it, but it isn't just in a file cabinet at my local FFL. When I buy a gun, I fill out the 4473. Dealer enters that data--including make/model/serial number--into an online form. Here in Oregon that is through the State Police. State police do the NICS check, approve or deny the sale. So that make/model/serial number info tied to my name and address are out there in dataland. Police are SUPPOSED to delete that data after a period of time. You think they do? FYI we have had universal background checks here in Oregon for a few years now. You can't even loan your neighbor a deer rifle legally without background checks.

When a gun shop closes the records go to the ATF.

Out-of-Business Records: When FFLs go out of business, they are legally mandated to send the NTC all firearms transaction records. Curious about how much they receive? About 1.2 million per month, and since 1968 they have "several hundred million" and the ATF says it's the only system of its kind across the globe.. Continue reading at: https://aliengearholsters.com/blog/atf-gun-serial-number-checks/
 

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Ancient Gaseous Emanation
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Several years ago, in Oklahoma, there was a teenage girl (maybe two) killed with a .40 handgun. The Oklahoma Highway Patrol went to all the area gunshops and got all records of sales of .40 caliber handguns. They contacted every owner and demanded that they show up to have their handguns tested. Many did show up, many refused and got more threatening letters but, as far as I know, no one was prosecuted for not showing up.
ONLY the ATF has the authority to demand review of Federal Forms 4473 held at firearms sales establishments. Local law enforcement, to include state level, may not legally inspect these Federal Forms. Doing so is a violation of federal law.
 

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ONLY the ATF has the authority to demand review of Federal Forms 4473 held at firearms sales establishments. Local law enforcement, to include state level, may not legally inspect these Federal Forms. Doing so is a violation of federal law.
It happened. It happens often, I would guess.
 

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Ancient Gaseous Emanation
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I doubt it happened as you describe. Had it happened that way, the OSP would be now patrolling on bicycles. Any gunstore owner forced to turn over Federal Forms 4473 to a state agency and any firearm purchaser listed on any of those Federal Forms would have standing to sue, and win, in Federal Court. It would only take one to sue and lawyers would be lined up for a big payday.

In fact, any FFL01 holder who reveals the contents of a Federal Form 4473 to any agency other than the ATF could be on the hook for punitive lawsuits.
 
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I doubt it happened as you describe. Had it happened that way, the OSP would be now patrolling on bicycles. Any gunstore owner forced to turn over Federal Forms 4473 to a state agency and any firearm purchaser listed on any of those Federal Forms would have standing to sue, and win, in Federal Court. It would only take one to sue and lawyers would be lined up for a big payday.

In fact, any FFL01 holder who reveals the contents of a Federal Form 4473 to any agency other than the ATF could be on the hook for punitive lawsuits.

The original Tulsa World article no longer exists for this quote but there are plenty of others. But, in this article, the ATF says the 4473s are available to law enforcement:

Gun owners got letters
The Tulsa World ^ | 8/20/08 | Manny Gamallo
Posted on 8/20/2008, 9:12:04 AM by T-Bird45
OSBI agents went to gun dealers and pawnshops to create a list of .40-caliber Glock owners.
WELEETKA (OK) — Authorities working to narrow their leads in the June 8 shooting deaths of two girls used old-fashioned legwork to come up with a list of area gun owners with .40-caliber pistols, one of two weapons used in the slayings.Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation agents knew the caliber of the guns used in the killings, so they merely checked with area gun dealers and pawnshops to determine who had bought or recently pawned .40-caliber Glocks.
"It's a typical procedure of any investigation" involving a gun, according to Jessica Brown, spokeswoman for the OSBI. That time-consuming procedure yielded the OSBI the names of more than 60 owners of .40-caliber guns in the Weleetka area.
Consequently, the OSBI sent letters to all those gun owners, asking them to voluntarily submit their weapons for test firings over the weekend at the Okfuskee County Courthouse at Okemah. About 40 of those gun owners showed up on Saturday and Sunday, and their weapons were fired once or twice and then returned to them.
The fired bullets and shell casings, meanwhile, were sent to a crime lab for analysis to determine if any of them match those used in the slayings of Skyla Jade Whitaker, 11, and Taylor Paschal-Placker, 13.
Brown said about five of the gun owners no longer owned the weapons, but they provided the names of the new owners. The other 15 or so gun owners who did not show up will be checked by the OSBI to see why they didn't volunteer for the test firings.
"They can have any number of reasons" for not volunteering, Brown said. "They could be against it, they could be anti-government, or they eventually may want to help." Because the test firing of the weapons is voluntary, Brown said there isn't any constitutional violations involved.
"It's a process of elimination," she said, noting that the tested weapons may have been loaned out by the owners or someone else may have had access to the guns.
On Monday, when the OSBI announced that it had test-fired weapons, it stated in its press release that it had sent letters to the "registered gun owners." That prompted concern Tuesday among many in the public, who noted that Oklahoma does not have a gun-registry law nor a central database of gun owners.
Tom Harris, an agent with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in Tulsa, confirmed that. According to Harris, most states, including Oklahoma, and the federal government do not have lists of registered gun owners.
He said the only way to get a listing of gun owners is by canvassing gun dealers or pawnshops individually to find out who bought weapons — as the OSBI did. Harris said gun dealers — "federal firearms licensees" — have to fill out ATF form 4473 whenever a weapon is purchased. The form lists the buyer, the address and other pertinent information.
They also have to contact the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) to determine whether the prospective buyer can legally purchase a weapon. Harris said the 4473 forms stay with the gun dealers and are not submitted to any government agency. They are, however, available to law enforcement. If a gun dealer goes out of business, the 4473 forms are stored in an ATF warehouse, he said.
Although the OSBI made public that a .40-caliber weapon was used in the slayings, it is not identifying the caliber of the other gun used. Brown would not say whether voluntary test firings would be held for the other weapon.
Authorities believe the killers are from the Weleetka area, given the remote location of the girls' slayings. They said the killers had to be familiar with the area — N. 3890 Road (County Line Road) north of Coleman Road, about four miles northeast of Weleetka.
Skyla was visiting Taylor at her home when they decided to go for a walk that Sunday afternoon. They walked north from Taylor's home along County Line Road to the Bad Creek bridge, a half-mile away.
Investigators said the two had made it to the bridge and were returning to Taylor's home when they were gunned down. Their bodies were found in a shallow roadside ditch, less than 1,000 feet from the Placker home. They were found about 30 minutes after they had left for the walk.
Autopsy reports on the girls showed they had been shot a total of 13 times. Skyla, the youngest, was shot eight times, and she suffered the most .40-caliber bullet wounds. Authorities noted that each of the girls was shot with two weapons. The medical examiner recovered spent bullets from their bodies and described them as small- and medium-sized.
 

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I used to have a PDF of the letter the OSBI sent.

There are also other Tulsa World articles quoted around, no longer available in the Tulsa World newspaper, though, stating that the OSBI was going to check up on the 15 or so who refused to "voluntarily" offer their gun for testing to find out why.

Here's a forum post from the time with the quote from the Tulsa World:

Brown said about five of the gun owners no longer owned the weapons, but they provided the names of the new owners.
The other 15 or so gun owners who did not show up will be checked by the OSBI to see why they didn't volunteer for the test firings.
"They can have any number of reasons" for not volunteering, Brown said. "They could be against it, they could be anti-government, or they eventually may want to help."
More like Volunteer or else.
 

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Ancient Gaseous Emanation
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
The AFT will often take a look at Federal Forms 4473 at the request of local and/or state law enforcement and pass on requested information. The local and/or state agencies never have physical control of the Federal Forms. That's the law.
 
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The AFT will often take a look at Federal Forms 4473 at the request of local and/or state law enforcement and pass on requested information. The local and/or state agencies never have physical control of the Federal Forms. That's the law.
You keep saying that but I posted the article with the ATF guy saying that the forms are available to law enforcement and that the OSBI did get access to the forms. What does law have to do with it? This is the government we're talking about.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
You are quoting an article written by a 'reporter' who, obviously, was lazy and didn't do their homework.

Several times the ATF called the shop, made an appointment and requested Federal Forms 4473 completed between two dates be made available for review. A team of ATF agents would arrive (without any state or local law enforcement in tow) review the Forms, take notes and leave. They were professional and mum about what they were looking for. Ya see? Not even the ATF can remove the Forms from the place of business (or where they are stored).

There is no way local or state law enforcement can legally have custody of, or even view, completed Federal Forms 4473.
 
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