[Shockwave_FR]

Hi everyone! My name is Maxime, I live in France and I am new on this forum.
I am a young inventor who does not have the necessary tools, parts and permissions to make his ideas come true, since it is forbidden to make or modify a gun in my country... So I wanted to share one of my innovative ideas with the gun community, this one is for shotguns.
It is inspired from Cosmi shotguns, which have a magazine tube in the stock instead of below the barrel. (You can see that on the first image)

So I was thinking it would be interesting to combine a Cosmi magazine tube with a traditional one! (As shown on my drawing)

What do you guys think? Any ideas to improve it or could someone be crazy enough to build it?
Let me know down below! (Sorry for my bad english, I am still practicing...)

 

[Mad Scientist]

A solution in search of a problem.

 

[jrbfishn]

Not really a solution. The shells take up mechanism space. Only way to make that viable for a shotgun is to add bulk to the reciever. Need some kind of mechanism to automatically switch from one magazine tube to the other. Opposing magazines are not really a solution. It adds too much bulk and more problems. And more parts to fail.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

 

[Square target]

Not the first design the have shells stored in a tube in the stock but most of them were smaller rifle calibers. Doesn't look like it leaves much meat in the stock area.

 

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

If you look back through the History of firearms you'll find that there's some pretty crazy stuff that actually made it off the drawing board. The thing to do is probably save up some money and MOVE to a place that has the things you need to pursue your ideas (first among them is the Freedom to pursue them). Then get a job in the industry you are interested in so you can learn the actual nuts and bolts of the product. Doing those things will help you refine your idea, determine its viability and make you a living in the process.

Alan

 

[Coalcracker]

It's been awhile. Since we had an invention idea here. I would imagine a synthetic stock would fit the bill for the strength issue. Good luck in your quest Shockwave.

 

[Shockwave_FR]

A solution in search of a problem.

In a way, you are right! If I want more capacity, I just need to buy a magazine tube extension. No need for an ultra complex mechanism when you already have something simple, reliable and effective. But in another way, this type of magazine system is not for everyone. It is aimed at competition shooters. When your shotgun is already loaded at maximum capacity and with the same type of cartridge, so same weight for each one; when you need a well-balanced gun in term of weight and to swing the barrel and manage to get all targets faster (because time is counted); also to have a "competition-ready" shotgun in a smaller package, which permits you to avoid bumping everywhere when you need to run from one spot to another or when you have to shoot behind an obstacle...

(Here is an image to show what I am trying to avoid, magazine tube that extends too far)

 

[Coalcracker]

Im not sure what competition extra rounds would be good for. When i shoot clays. Your allowed 2 rounds at a time in the gun.

 

[Shockwave_FR]

Not really a solution. The shells take up mechanism space. Only way to make that viable for a shotgun is to add bulk to the reciever. Need some kind of mechanism to automatically switch from one magazine tube to the other. Opposing magazines are not really a solution. It adds too much bulk and more problems. And more parts to fail.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Bulk? No need for much bulk, Rodolfo Cosmi already solved that issue awhile back when he started making his own shotguns (as you can see on those images of a Cosmi shotgun mechanism, which is pretty slim)

Now, "some kind of mechanism to automatically switch from one magazine tube to the other", which is something I forgot to draw on my "blueprint", so I had the idea to put a small extra piece of metal on the front magazine follower, then when the front magazine is empty this little thing on the follower would go further and push a small, ""spring-loaded"" transfer bar, this one pushing a catch on the tube located in the stock, which will release the shells in order to use your second magazine tube!

 

[Shockwave_FR]

Im not sure what competition extra rounds would be good for. When i shoot clays. Your allowed 2 rounds at a time in the gun.

I was thinking about 3 Guns, but I am sure there is more...

 

[Shockwave_FR]

It's been awhile. Since we had an invention idea here. I would imagine a synthetic stock would fit the bill for the strength issue. Good luck in your quest Shockwave.

...And I have many more ideas to put on paper! It has been 4 years now that I am doing researches reading books, watching firearm videos, looking for every firearms brand to see what they propose to the military/law enforcement/civilian market in order to create new, innovative designs that fixes common issues! Thank you for your encouragement!

About the synthetic stock, I was thinking the same thing. There is only a small chance for a wood stock to not crack on the first drop with that system, except if you reinforce it, but I highly doubt that ...

 

[Shockwave_FR]

If you look back through the History of firearms you'll find that there's some pretty crazy stuff that actually made it off the drawing board. The thing to do is probably save up some money and MOVE to a place that has the things you need to pursue your ideas (first among them is the Freedom to pursue them). Then get a job in the industry you are interested in so you can learn the actual nuts and bolts of the product. Doing those things will help you refine your idea, determine its viability and make you a living in the process.

Alan

To be honest, saying that it is "forbidden" to make guns in France, is a bit extreme. Making or modify guns is authorized as long as you are a graduated gunsmith or firearm engineer in the army, which I want to be when I finish graduating from High-school and start an apprenticeship at the Manufacture d'Armes de St-Etienne or Verney-Carron (armory school), since I love my country and I do not want to leave it.
But if I really need to... I may do as you are saying, the US being the best option in my opinion...

 

[Square target]

Im not sure what competition extra rounds would be good for. When i shoot clays. Your allowed 2 rounds at a time in the gun.

3 gun shooting uses extended mag tubes like he pictured. Watch some of Jerry mic....oh hell i can't spell his name but you probably know who i mean. They actually outlawed and mag tube extensions here in NY even if they are shorter than the barrel. Must have been a lot of mass shootings with those or something...

 

[Shockwave_FR]

Not the first design the have shells stored in a tube in the stock but most of them were smaller rifle calibers. Doesn't look like it leaves much meat in the stock area.

You are right, it is far from being the first design putting the magazine in the stock (Spencer rifles for example), but for those rifles you have to remove the tube from back, drop cartridges into the stock, put the tube back in place and finally chamber a round, so time consuming...
About the stock, as Coalcracker said, a synthetic one will do the job!

 

[Shockwave_FR]

3 gun shooting uses extended mag tubes like he pictured. Watch some of Jerry mic....oh hell i can't spell his name but you probably know who i mean. They actually outlawed and mag tube extensions here in NY even if they are shorter than the barrel. Must have been a lot of mass shootings with those or something...

Jerry Miculek

 

[BillM]

Welcome to the forum! Interesting idea. A lot of interest in IPSC shotgun in Europe, especially in the UK.
Much more than here in the US. We rarely see shotgun only matches, it's usually as part of 3 gun.
Have you gone to matches and talked to competitors to see if there is any interest? Here in the US there is already the Roth Xrail that will increase capacity to 26 without excess length.

 

[Shockwave_FR]

Welcome to the forum! Interesting idea. A lot of interest in IPSC shotgun in Europe, especially in the UK.
Much more than here in the US. We rarely see shotgun only matches, it's usually as part of 3 gun.
Have you gone to matches and talked to competitors to see if there is any interest? Here in the US there is already the Roth Xrail that will increase capacity to 26 without excess length.

View attachment 120019

Hello Bill! Thank you for the reply!
"Have you gone to matches and talked to competitors to see if there is any interest?"
Sadly, No. I based my researches on shotgun capacity problems by listening to competitors interview, watching 3 gun matches videos and reading forum posts. I definitely want to meet competitors that live in France IRL (since I am French) to talk with them to figure out what they really really need. But it is hard to find at least one shooter in that category, since the dominant shooting sport here is Ball Trap using double barrel shotguns, not "high capacity" semi-auto shotguns...

"Here in the US there is already the Roth Xrail that will increase capacity to 26 without excess length."
You just summoned my Nemesis, the thing that I absolutely want to avoid xD
It has been a while since I know its existence and my first thought was "Oh no, it does not look good. Too big, too fragile, too heavy when fully loaded (so too front heavy and unbalanced), feels unreliable, must be a pain in the ass to load, no possibility to double load or quad load (not really a problem since your magazine is already loaded on 3 Guns, but still)... Well, it is bad.", also if this system is a game changer that effective for matches, why do I only see it in fun videos where experienced shooters like Jerry, or regular peoples like Matt from Demolition ranch, use it to complete personal challenges at their range instead of using it during competitions? Because it is simply not meant for this purpose. Also, you really do not need that much firepower in a realistic situation like hunting, competition, home defense or even war. For me, this accessory goes into the "tacticool" section, not the practical one.
But those are just my thoughts, I can be wrong since I never even used one nor seen one IRL...

 

[Square target]

. Also, you really do not need that much firepower in a competition
But those are just my thoughts, I can be wrong since I never even used one nor seen one IRL...

Well yes depending on how many rounds the competition course is. Loading takes time even with the speed loaders they use so any advantage in a timed match could mean the difference between 1st and 10th especially when 10ths of a second count. That's why so many other things have been invented for competition shooting. Just a simple thing like the weighted base plates on mags so they drop out faster. Like i said when it comes to competition timed matches 10ths of a second matter. One of the main reason this fat old guy aint doing that type of shooting...

 

[Shockwave_FR]

Well yes depending on how many rounds the competition course is [...] Like i said when it comes to competition timed matches 10ths of a second matter. One of the main reason this fat old guy aint doing that type of shooting...

You got me on this one! XD
And you are saying true, milliseconds do count in competition, but accuracy counts too and even more than time. When you see that a X-rail magazine extension weights 1-2 pounds unloaded and 2-3 pounds more when fully loaded, so it makes your average shotgun (like a benelli, which is pretty common for competition) have a total weight of 11.6 pounds (5,4 kg), plus it is really front heavy so it takes much force to swing your barrel from one target to another and stop swinging inertia at the right time to get an accurate shot (might be insignificant, but it is a problem). Don't forget that too much weight, in any type of form, causes you more fatigue than you can handle at the end of the day.
Let's just say there is pros and cons, but for me there is more cons using this method of capacity extension

 

[Philmo11]

Just a thought. There are Aguila mini shells on the market. Their distribution is limited by the unreliable feeding in standard action shotguns (2-3/4”-3”). Development of a short 1-3/4” action may accomplish both reliable feeding of mini shells and higher capacity at the same time using existing mag feeding systems.

It’s a section of the market that has underutilized potential. Shorter, faster strokes, smaller external magazines for box fed shotguns...