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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Anyone here that's active or retired police and have any comments or thoughts about HR218/LEOSA carrying? Not sure how it is where you're from, but in my area of NY and NJ it doesn't have any teeth. Both states are politically arrogant and only recognize their own state permits regardless of the federal provisions that allow you to carry. Making matters worse the NRA/ILA has no interest in backing you up on it, and takes on the position that it's up to each state to call their own shots as they don't want to get involved. Big problem is that you could be falsely arrested and have to deal with the aggravation and costs to be found not guilty, and good luck getting an attorney that understands this, as all the ones I spoke to about it told me to seek legal help from the NRA who was not willing to get involved either. I thought this federal law/right to carry was great at first, but I finally accepted the fact that the law is vague, complicated, arguable, and could get you cuffed up and face prosecution. Now my feeling is that I'm not willing to take the chance of getting arrested. I feel that my best way of avoiding aggravation is to have the state carry permit for whatever state I might be in. I'm confident that a national reciprocity bill by Trump will have much better teeth because the NRA/ILA will make sure of it, provide representation, and even help you with a civil suit afterwards. Is there any states out there that honor HR218/LEOSA like they're supposed to? This is sad, but it's reality around here.
 

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i have not really studied it that much.......i am starting to get close to retirement and my thoughts were simply to get a carry permit and be like everyone else if i wanted to CC......in my mind, a retired LEO is just that......retired. He joins the herd.......if he wants to be apart from the herd, then he gets a CHL like any responsible citizen who is a sheepdog and not a sheep.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
i have not really studied it that much.......i am starting to get close to retirement and my thoughts were simply to get a carry permit and be like everyone else if i wanted to CC......in my mind, a retired LEO is just that......retired. He joins the herd.......if he wants to be apart from the herd, then he gets a CHL like any responsible citizen who is a sheepdog and not a sheep.
If most LEO's in Texas think like you, then your state is much like NY and NJ. Sad that there's a law and no one seems to honor it, or is willing to defend it. I have state carry permits. I just raise this point because any Trump National Reciprocity can be treated like toilet paper as well if it doesn't get the support that it deserves. You probably don't need a carry permit but because of political arrogance and people who choose to not honor certain laws you might have to get a civilian permit. I have no plans or desire to go to Texas, so that state doesn't really matter to me, but thanks anyway. And BTW if you get stopped for a traffic violation and are hoping for a break, don't mention that you're a retired LEO because you're retired and just a sheep, rather than a sheep dog.
 

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i have no idea what other TX officers think on the subject..........most retired officers that i know obtain a carry permit.
and....a CHL is a sheepdog........a CHL is a responsible citizen.

And BTW if you get stopped for a traffic violation and are hoping for a break, don't mention that you're a retired LEO because you're retired and just a sheep, rather than a sheep dog.
so now are you saying that a retired LEO should be privalaged to carry and break traffic laws as well?

i view LEO work as a profession.......when i retire it will be a former profession that i was proud to be a part of. I will be nothing special when i retire and i do not seek special federal privileges .....i will be a responsible citizen. And i think responsible citizens should have a CHL.....they should be sheepdogs......not sheep.


i also view such law as federal interference in a States Rights issue and also a step towards a nationalization of law enforcement in general. I do not need the feds blessings. Not all State Laws are the same...nor are the requirements for being an LEO, training as an LEO, or enforcement actions as an LEO.. There are just too many variables. Such also sets a precedent for a national standardization in my mind.....or at least laying a stone for such.

i am basicly cautious against such federal "help" or "interference" depending on one's perspective......and i am just as cautious about any sort of national carry license on a federal level for the general public.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
i have no idea what other TX officers think on the subject..........most retired officers that i know obtain a carry permit.
and....a CHL is a sheepdog........a CHL is a responsible citizen.



so now are you saying that a retired LEO should be privalaged to carry and break traffic laws as well?

i view LEO work as a profession.......when i retire it will be a former profession that i was proud to be a part of. I will be nothing special when i retire and i do not seek special federal privileges .....i will be a responsible citizen. And i think responsible citizens should have a CHL.....they should be sheepdogs......not sheep.


i also view such law as federal interference in a States Rights issue and also a step towards a nationalization of law enforcement in general. I do not need the feds blessings. Not all State Laws are the same...nor are the requirements for being an LEO, training as an LEO, or enforcement actions as an LEO.. There are just too many variables. Such also sets a precedent for a national standardization in my mind.....or at least laying a stone for such.

i am basicly cautious against such federal "help" or "interference" depending on one's perspective......and i am just as cautious about any sort of national carry license on a federal level for the general public.
No going to argue, just one of those situations where we don't see eye to eye, but that's okay because in America we are all entitled to our own perspectives. At least we're both for the Second Amendment. Peace Brother!
 

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No going to argue, just one of those situations where we don't see eye to eye, but that's okay because in America we are all entitled to our own perspectives. At least we're both for the Second Amendment. Peace Brother!
Coach, I was only a reserve a short while right after college and come home from overseas, and not reserve certainly for the ten years at least total accrued needed to apply etc. , but as an instructor to issue needed twelve month certs I know of these and 2013 additions for DoD and related. I share your concerns and what I think are your frustrations as to how a Fed passed application(s) are not known or properly handled as one would think they could or should be. But from discussions on our CHL Instructors forum sites, this was and I guess still is still one or more cans of worms for many. I'll touch on highlight concerns as " I recall them" as am on a smart phone and am long winded typing anyway...lol...*many states such as CA. Attny Gen. said in print they wouldnt honor any way any how...* some confusion on 1995 gfszn gun free safe school etc. , as this fell under its own published areas of places states could choose not to allow, yet many states would allow another states CHL to be accepted in zones or within 1000 ' etc. * I remember many calling foul or unconstitutional as DoD or retired MP's or others foregoing NCIS unlike CHL holders from state (as to 2013 additions) am fuzzy on details but remember was an issue ...*many preferred their state permit and reciprocity carry, as most good for 4 years etc. so why bother with annual recert of proficiency per LEOSA etc. ...theres more if we wanna discuss it, but as I recall, using your state permit just won out on too many levels, per my observance anyway. One thing I do remember reading up on, LEOSA
(at that time ) hadnt been challenged at SCOTUS yet, and was linked somehow to Commerce laws, and folks were anxious to see it come up cause as I recall, fail or uphold, as it went so would go the 1995 safe gun zone act etc. ? Anyway, from what I knew of it unless much has changed, I would have stuck with a state CHL and use reciprocity where allowed, as prospects of ALL states Having to allow because of FED LAW, seemed weak at the time. Hell, we got a county here near Austin, spanish lady sheriff, their fixing to loose funds cause she wont notify ICE or Customs of illegal alliens she releases...just like good old SF or NYC. I guess I'm sayin I think states are more together on this per ATTGen letters from each other, than the FED laws..? Regards, 1shot
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
1 Shot, I totally agree, and while Trump seems to have a plan for reciprocity, that too will probably have a lot of growing pains as states will flex their own clout and good people will pay the price as guinea pigs as the law gets sorted out. I wish I had the money and a situation where I could take a hit and be arrested to set the record straight but it's beyond me in my situation. There have already been multiple arrests on LEOSA carry situations, none of which resulted in a prosecution to my knowledge, but rather many resulting in civil settlement payoffs to those who were unjustly arrested. Those cases can be found on line by googling LEOSA HR218 cases. You are correct that it is a huge can of worms as I have found out for myself without getting arrested, but rather being close enough to see what's going at offices involved with the administration of justice at both state county and state levels. Not good for people carrying in general, and many opinions conflicting with one another . Not sure if LEOSA was crafted to throw a bone to LE and just let everyone wing it knowing that the law was weakly made with ultimate objective of giving a sense of a right to carry to LE but at the same time keeping those who carry under LEOSA on eggshells and again letting the lawyers make some money sorting it all out. Either that or it was just poorly crafted. The states that I have dealt with have already put their own twist on LEOSA and declared that it must fall under their own permit system resulting in total disregard for the Federal provisions of LEOSA. So will this happen with anything Trump does with national reciprocity? Hope not, might sound great at first but might end up going down the same way as LEOSA has with the states just turning up their noses and putting their own spin on it. Puts the average person in a quandary and at risk of being arrested. I guess venting here might be a small seed if anything, but I actually have a lengthy background in all of this controversy (particularly relating to LE) and maybe letters to our reps might be best. Problem with that is that it is so complicated that most US Senators and Congressmen just want a short letter and would not bother going through the pains of trying to understand the complexity of this matter. It will take some real listening and work and some real follow up and oversight by feds to make this work if they want a national carry policy whether it be for police, civilians, or both. Many will argue that the states should have all to say, and that letting the feds step in is a bad precedent, but if they don't step in, and states continue to ignore the Second Amendment, there will be no other recourse other than to deal with it from the top down (fed level). Very frustrating because it gives government at all levels more flex than they should have in honoring laws. The other thought I hear and see is some people just leave certain states particularly like NY and NJ and move to states that have better gun laws, but something seems wrong with that picture as it think it's just running away from the anti gun political cancer which really needs to be cured or it will end up spreading everywhere. There is a debacle going on in NY right now where the rural counties upstate are looking to cut a deal for better gun laws for themselves in the rural upstate parts and sell out on the NY City and the greater NY City area. I'm hearing that the local gun lobby, the NYS Rifle and Pistol Club, who is closely aligned with the NRA/ILA, does not want to go for this, as they feel we should all stick together and leave no ones rights behind. At first I thought about folding over and going along with the idea of selling out on the metro area in southern NY, but on second thought I had to agree that selling out is wrong. Everyone in America is entitled to same basic Second Amendment rights as everyone else. Selling out on others gun rights is a very bad precedent as it begins a trend where any political group can be sacrificed for the benefit of a few. That's really not the American way. The crux of it is that most of us can carry under whatever laws and provisions we have, but if the matter ends up on the desk of a prosecutor, DA, or other high sitting government legal official, you're likely to be in for some real legal aggravation like jail, big fines, and a record that will flag you from not being able to get your hands near any guns at all. All to fall on your back with the time and cost of fixing it.That's a pretty severe result that most of us don't want to deal with.
 

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I retired for 30 years of LE in 2006 and have been carrying under LEOSA since then. I have qualified yearly in my home state of New Mexico and traveled from there to New York State (nor NYC) and New Jersey on many occasions. Cops in upstate NY are aware of and support LEOSA (once they were schooled in it) and admittedly it wasn't til 2010 or so they really understood it. I have traveled in NJ also nur have never talked with any cops about it. I Travel to these to states because my wife and I still have relatives there. When visiting, My gun is locked in a gun safe in my trunk as I do not carry in either state. I don't want to push my luck, But why should I leave my gun at home when I travel just because I will be spending a few days in NJ or NY.. I also maintain a CCW that is recognized in every state I travel in except these two. AFAIK there has not been a LEOSA incident in many years even New York accepts it for what it is Federal Law.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I retired for 30 years of LE in 2006 and have been carrying under LEOSA since then. I have qualified yearly in my home state of New Mexico and traveled from there to New York State (nor NYC) and New Jersey on many occasions. Cops in upstate NY are aware of and support LEOSA (once they were schooled in it) and admittedly it wasn't til 2010 or so they really understood it. I have traveled in NJ also nur have never talked with any cops about it. I Travel to these to states because my wife and I still have relatives there. When visiting, My gun is locked in a gun safe in my trunk as I do not carry in either state. I don't want to push my luck, But why should I leave my gun at home when I travel just because I will be spending a few days in NJ or NY.. I also maintain a CCW that is recognized in every state I travel in except these two. AFAIK there has not been a LEOSA incident in many years even New York accepts it for what it is Federal Law.
In most cases all police officers from the 50 states will honor LEOSA/HR218. The problem is with some prosecutors, DA's ADA's, and judges. They are the ones that are most likely to demonstrate political arrogance or indifference to existing laws that they might not like or agree with. They can, have, and will prosecute in many cases. Losing a case for them is not a big problem because the public money they spend in a prosecution means nothing in the big picture, and no one really cares, so they can frivolously prosecute and get away with it. The only good news to date they have never had a successful prosecution against a LEOSA/HR218 defense. The problem is yours because you have to provide for your own defense while the costs and aggravation might break you.. And BTW, don't count on using an NRA/ILA attorney to represent you. They could care less about representing someone in a LEOSA/HR218 matter as I'm familiar with this first hand. They've expressed to me that LEOSA/HR218 isn't worth dog poop in their eyes, so you're really on your own.
 

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In most cases all police officers from the 50 states will honor LEOSA/HR218. The problem is with some prosecutors, DA's ADA's, and judges. They are the ones that are most likely to demonstrate political arrogance or indifference to existing laws that they might not like or agree with. They can, have, and will prosecute in many cases. Losing a case for them is not a big problem because the public money they spend in a prosecution means nothing in the big picture, and no one really cares, so they can frivolously prosecute and get away with it. The only good news to date they have never had a successful prosecution against a LEOSA/HR218 defense. The problem is yours because you have to provide for your own defense while the costs and aggravation might break you.. And BTW, don't count on using an NRA/ILA attorney to represent you. They could care less about representing someone in a LEOSA/HR218 matter as I'm familiar with this first hand. They've expressed to me that LEOSA/HR218 isn't worth dog poop in their eyes, so you're really on your own.
I totally agree. But if LE does their job and recognizes LEOSA the DA/Prosecutor should never be involved. Unless of course if you pull you gun for some reason where their could be charges other than just possession of a firearm. For many years in New Mexico long before we had LEOSA or CCW in NM, if a cop was traveling with a concealed handgunm we told him to have a nice day!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
I totally agree. But if LE does their job and recognizes LEOSA the DA/Prosecutor should never be involved. Unless of course if you pull you gun for some reason where their could be charges other than just possession of a firearm. For many years in New Mexico long before we had LEOSA or CCW in NM, if a cop was traveling with a concealed handgunm we told him to have a nice day!
I like that and did the same thing for brother officers that were carrying. I told them to have a nice day for everything that I had discretion with and then some. My issues had to do with moving with handguns and the public authorities involved (above beyond the police) were not so helpful at first and basically told me I could wipe my ass with HR218. So I went through hell and got it all worked out because they would get the last laugh if got to their desk. Relying on HR218/LEOSA seemed like a poor option under the circumstances (again, not the cops fault, they were all ok with it). Might of cost me getting locked up and a ton of money. Prosecutors have a ton of public money to piss away at their whim, and I don't. I did what I had to do and didn't like it, but now I've got Carte Blanche permit wise (through the state), got it all worked and I'm good to go. Have a nice day brother!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
I thought about that, but I don't travel out of state too often and when I do I usually call the states that I'm passing through and get an okay on a taped line for HR218/LEOSA,and a name, and then just do it. If I get hung up at least I'll have HR218/LEOSA as a defense and have a name and date of a conversation with authorization before it goes too far. I also try to do most of the my out of state driving during business hours if possible, so if there is trouble, phone calls can be made and the right people can be contacted before it goes too far down the drain. In other words getting bagged late on a Friday night might mean sitting in a cell until Monday morning waiting for someone with brains to come to work to straighten it all out. Really can't argue with Barney late at night or during the weekends, but if a high ranking officer, a DA or ADA, or judge is on duty, that will often resolve it right then and there as they are more likely to know, understand, and uphold the law in a better way. One time I went to place where HR218 was clearly not an exemption, and I called ahead and asked if I could declare it and check it in before entering so as not to be in violation. The officer in charge understood my situation, exempted me and told me to just take care of business and not worry about it on a taped line with his name behind it. I was very appreciative of that. Comforting to know that there are some good guys left out there.
 

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i have not really studied it that much.......i am starting to get close to retirement and my thoughts were simply to get a carry permit and be like everyone else if i wanted to CC......in my mind, a retired LEO is just that......retired. He joins the herd.......if he wants to be apart from the herd, then he gets a CHL like any responsible citizen who is a sheepdog and not a sheep.
I am not sure if you grasp what LEOSA is, but it IS a permit. It is a card you carry issued by your former agency in conjunction with the issuing authority in your state. Our LEOSA cards in AZ look nearly identical to the civilian CCW, which I also maintain because they circumnavigate the Brady check for firearms purchases here in AZ whereas the LEOSA card doesn't. Of course, Arizona has Constitutional Carry, but the civilian CCW gets reciprocity in 40 other states so it's still a good idea for non LE to get one. You can't carry on LEOSA without the permit and qualification.
 

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Still believe i will pass.........under the LEOSA terms besides carrying the retirement card, I must also carry proof of firearms qualification at all times.....and i must qualify once a year every year.....and that gun information and serial number will be maintained by the dept and TCOLE so the State will have that......NO THANKS.

The CHL is much less "intrusive" with no gun info or serial info going into another database locally or State-wide..

While i trust the current administration at my S.O., i have no idea what the future holds in future elections or for that matter with the State of Texas as far as that goes.....the State is getting a little more blue every year.
 

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Still believe i will pass.........under the LEOSA terms besides carrying the retirement card, I must also carry proof of firearms qualification at all times.....and i must qualify once a year every year.....and that gun information and serial number will be maintained by the dept and TCOLE so the State will have that......NO THANKS.

The CHL is much less "intrusive" with no gun info or serial info going into another database locally or State-wide..

While i trust the current administration at my S.O., i have no idea what the future holds in future elections or for that matter with the State of Texas as far as that goes.....the State is getting a little more blue every year.
Well, after 30 years of service...I like the fact that one of my rewards is nation wide carry with no BS. My wife is an MD/FACS (trauma surgeon) and goes to NYC once a year for a conference and to DC, Chicago, and CA. I like that I can travel armed with her now that I am retired. The minor hoops that we have to go through in AZ are more than worth it.
 

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i can only dream of traveling to such locations yearly....and have only been out of State on extradition matters and never on vacation...different circumstances for me and mine. But Texas is plenty big to travel around in.

i also do not believe in special considerations for a former LEO....the career ends.....and the life as a citizen begins. But LEOSA is the law and of course we reconize it.....the problem remains if other officers are actually knowledgeable of it which i do question. And i have no knowledge of those out of State depts and officers other than the usual horror stories associated with...well...DC, CA Chicago, NY, etc, etc.

and retirement for me begins in another 26 days!!!!

i have already enrolled in the next CHL class and looking so forward to not have to undergo background checks for future purchases.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Cops need to keep carrying because they will always have enemies that will seek them out when they are vulnerable especially in retirement and if they're unarmed. They are also another good guy with a gun in the mix when the SHTF. That's what GWB was thinking when he made the law. Does not make sense for retired police not to keep carrying. I'm good to go in all 50 states, and I think qualified responsible citizens should be allowed to do the same, but I find it offensive and ludicrous for someone to preach that retired cops should not have guns. Can't see any logic in that. If you want to point fingers at city cops, that's fine, but don't forget to do the math. When you have numbers such as NYPD 30k +, or Chicago, you're going to get more bad apples. About the same ratio as Mayberry when Barney is a bad apple.
i can only dream of traveling to such locations yearly....and have only been out of State on extradition matters and never on vacation...different circumstances for me and mine. But Texas is plenty big to travel around in.

i also do not believe in special considerations for a former LEO....the career ends.....and the life as a citizen begins. But LEOSA is the law and of course we reconize it.....the problem remains if other officers are actually knowledgeable of it which i do question. And i have no knowledge of those out of State depts and officers other than the usual horror stories associated with...well...DC, CA Chicago, NY, etc, etc.

and retirement for me begins in another 26 days!!!!

i have already enrolled in the next CHL class and looking so forward to not have to undergo background checks for future purchases.
 

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From what I have seen it is a hassle for retired, I believe you are required to qualify yearly, and it may be on your dime. I OC/CC with a permit, only a few places I can't carry, like the hospital. If I am not mistaken the local hospitals around here will only allow active LE to carry in the hospitals.

As far as the NRA not defending LEOSA, I would be disappointed if they did. LEOSA is not a right, or even associated with the 2A, it is a privilege for LE active, and retired. It was written, and passed by progressive liberals(Ted Kennedy) after 9-11 to keep the unwashed masses in check. It is like the Patriot act, which has absolutely nothing to do with patriotism. What it should be is all law abiding citizens, including LE should be allowed the tools for SD.
 

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Cops need to keep carrying because they will always have enemies that will seek them out when they are vulnerable especially in retirement and if they're unarmed. They are also another good guy with a gun in the mix when the SHTF. That's what GWB was thinking when he made the law. Does not make sense for retired police not to keep carrying. I'm good to go in all 50 states, and I think qualified responsible citizens should be allowed to do the same..........
and i totally agree with the above statement......and also that a retired officer can obtain a CHL... just like anyone else.... to do it and abide by the same rules like everyone else......afterall, the retired officer is now just like everyone else.

, but I find it offensive and ludicrous for someone to preach that retired cops should not have guns. Can't see any logic in that.
no one has preached that here......retired officers should carry just like any responsible citizen should carry......just different opinions as to the license method......LEOSA license vs State permit is the discussion along with just what are "privileges" that should be granted to retired officers vs those same retired officers just joining the citizenry and getting a chl instead of being held a half-step above the citizens and therefore more privileged.

And then there is the whole basic question started over a year ago now with this thread in the OP that was the origin of this thread ...What is the general perception of officers and that there was a mess of trouble in NJ and NY from LEOSA not being reconized... and what other States that fail to reconize it........and i have no idea what the attitudes of other officers or States are as to enforcement which is why i myself will not depend on LEOSA.


If you want to point fingers at city cops, that's fine, but don't forget to do the math. When you have numbers such as NYPD 30k +, or Chicago, you're going to get more bad apples. About the same ratio as Mayberry when Barney is a bad apple.
and i have no idea where this came from........there are bound to be more considerations than just "bad apples" due to the numbers game on the size of the dept...or urban vs rural.......as was mentioned in the OP some entire States are failing to comply........and then the questioned knowledge of the LEOSA law by individual officers regardless of the size of any dept and then different politics as well. I have no crystal ball as to what officers, departments, or regions of this Country are compliant and those which are not.......other than what others post.....as what was specifically stated in the OP about non-compliance with NY and NJ. And from news accounts of anti-gun States, that leads me to believe a higher probability of non-compliance in States such as CA.....or city states such as Chicago that trouble may lurk there as well for the retired officer depending on LEOSA.

and then there is this from the OP......

I thought this federal law/right to carry was great at first, but I finally accepted the fact that the law is vague, complicated, arguable, and could get you cuffed up and face prosecution. Now my feeling is that I'm not willing to take the chance of getting arrested. I feel that my best way of avoiding aggravation is to have the state carry permit for whatever state I might be in. I'm confident that a national reciprocity bill by Trump will have much better teeth because the NRA/ILA will make sure of it, provide representation, and even help you with a civil suit afterwards.
BINGO!!!!!!! we have a winner
 
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