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Say you are holding a perp at gunpoint and a police officer, fellow CCW holder, or off duty cop decides to respond. All they see is a man holding a gun pointing it at another. You may or may not have already fired your gun further raising the responders Adrenalin. How do you prevent them from shooting you before they know who is who?

A friend of mine gave me an idea that I use today and recommend to others. I bought a badge that looks like those carried by police. In the event that I shoot someone or am holding someone at gunpoint I will hold this badge (in a black wallet style holder) high above my head. The mere sight of this badge will cause police,ccw's and other good guys to pause before shooting. I asked close to a dozen Tampa police officers, detectives and HCSO deputies if it would make them pause and they said absolutely followed by good idea. It says CWP permit so you won't get in trouble for impersonating an officer.
 
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Discussion Starter #2
Basic guideline here:

You show anyone your gun when the bullets are coming out of the muzzle. If you're not going to shoot it, you have no business pulling it out.

You're NOT "law enforcement."
 
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Slam Fire said:
Basic guideline here:

You show anyone your gun when the bullets are coming out of the muzzle. If you're not going to shoot it, you have no business pulling it out.

You're NOT "law enforcement."
And if I pull my gun and he comes to a screeching halt and throws his hands up, do I shoot him anyway, since I pulled out my gun? Of course not, at least not if I don't want to go to prison. According to John Lott and others, the guy DOES come to a screeching halt 90% of the time a gun is pulled. This "guideline" is basically useless, unless you have twenty years to spare.

I'd pass on the phony mall ninja badge. Just tell the guy to prone out facing away from you and then holster your pistol, keeping your hand on it. When the cops arrive, slowly put your hands in the air and explain that the guy attacked you. Follow their instructions to the letter.
 
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Badge is a bad idea.

Actually -- a badge is completely stupid.

Disclosing your firearm -- When you show your gun you provide anyone with the defense: "He pulled a gun on me."

So you don't use your carry gun as a "negotiation tool" or a "threat."

When you pull your gun, you open the door to someone firing upon you in self defense. And the courts will uphold their reactions.

So if you're not going to shoot, you'd be well served by not brandishing or "threatening."

"I have a gun" and reaching under your shirt is legal defense to draw and fire on you.

They get to know you have a gun when you're shooting at them.

Ditch the badge. You're not a cop.
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Slam Fire said:
Badge is a bad idea.

Actually -- a badge is completely stupid.

Disclosing your firearm -- When you show your gun you provide anyone with the defense: "He pulled a gun on me."
We, the defenders, act in defense of ourselves or others. We only show our weapons when an aggressor has initiated a fight, or is about to. Thus, we already have an affirmative defense - self-defense - to use in court. It hardly matters that the aggressor can claim the same. Newsflash for you: criminals lie all the time, and your attacker will say anything to get off, regardless of what actually happened. This is why we need to learn to manage witnesses with our actions, words, and body language - not by putting ourselves in excess danger for fear that the aggressor will have some made-up defense for attacking us in the first place!


So you don't use your carry gun as a "negotiation tool" or a "threat."
You may not. But I would strongly prefer to not shoot somebody if I don't have to. In addition to the social implications of doing so, it's a minimum of about $40,000 in legal fees if you end up in court before even a grand jury. If it ends up at criminal trial, say goodbye to your home, savings, guns and everything else of value that you own. I'd much rather intimidate the hell out of a guy by drawing at the outset of a fight, versus waiting until the very last second and being absolutely required to fire. I have no problem explaining my justified actions to the police.

When you pull your gun, you open the door to someone firing upon you in self defense. And the courts will uphold their reactions.
But the point is that you'd only draw your gun to defuse an imminent attack! It doesn't matter what he can claim - you wouldn't take your gun out unless you were already in danger. The danger may not have reached the point where you need to fire, or the aggressor may give up as soon as he sees the gun. Either is vastly preferable to shooting, from both the moral and legal standpoints.

So if you're not going to shoot, you'd be well served by not brandishing or "threatening."
Not only is this wrong for the reasons stated above, it is also tactically stupid, if not suicidal. If you wait until the guy is about to kill you, you will be very, very short on the time required to draw (from concealment) and fire. Looking at the old Tueller Drill, for example, we see that an aggressor with a knife or impact weapon can cover 7 yards in well under 1.5 seconds. I covered it in 1.27 seconds when I took LFI-1, from a standing start. How many people can draw a pistol from concealment and fire a couple of good A-zone hits in that time frame, against a moving opponent and under deadly stress?

"I have a gun" and reaching under your shirt is legal defense to draw and fire on you.
Again, so what? You wouldn't draw the gun unless YOU already had an affirmative defense.

They get to know you have a gun when you're shooting at them.
Or they get to know you have a gun when they are ransacking your dead body and find the holstered pistol that you couldn't draw in time, because you waited until the very last moment to attempt to execute a draw.

Ditch the badge. You're not a cop.
We agree on one thing, at least!
 
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Discussion Starter #7
You'd be well served to review the laws regarding "brandishing," "menacing," and "harassment."

When you disclose your gun, you open the door to someone lawfully returning fire because they're being put into "immediate and imminent threat" -- with a visible firearm no less.

That's something you need to consider when you decide to brandish your firearm. When you pull you gun out, you're past the negotiation stage. If you're pulling your gun out to "negotiate" then you're "brandishing." -- And you might get shot doing it.
 
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dont carry a badge..... worst idea you could have and looks really bad in court. if you want to do something like that put your ccl in wallet with a lament side on it. and in general no one is going to shoot you just cause you have a gun, there gonna yell at you to drop it or stop. what you do at that point is on you.

TAKE A CLASS
 

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Badge - Bad idea. If you want to carry a badge, go through the local/state academy and become a sworn officer. Better bet would take a training course on how to handle yourself in those types of situations. If the police arriving on the scene do not recognzie you, they aren't going to care what you are waving around over your head. They will secure everyone and then sort out who is who.

How not to get shot: If your weapons is out and the police arrive. Do not point your weapon at them. Do exactly what they tell you to do.
 
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Discussion Starter #10
Impersonating a police officer is not very wise....
 

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Slam Fire said:
You'd be well served to review the laws regarding "brandishing," "menacing," and "harassment."

When you disclose your gun, you open the door to someone lawfully returning fire because they're being put into "immediate and imminent threat" -- with a visible firearm no less.

That's something you need to consider when you decide to brandish your firearm. When you pull you gun out, you're past the negotiation stage. If you're pulling your gun out to "negotiate" then you're "brandishing." -- And you might get shot doing it.
If I draw my gun in a legitimate self defense situation and the perp stops and surrenders when I tell him to, is that brandishing or the legitimate excersice of my right to defend myself followed by a citizen's arrest? Over two million crimes are prevented every year by citizens-not all of them shoot. Are the ones who don't shoot guilty of a crime because they "negotiated" their way out of a bad situation?

Also, they lose the right to plead self defense when they are the initiator of the incident. If they approach you with a weapon or in a threatening manner, they cannot then say that the presence of your weapon justifies thier actions as self defense.
 
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All you guys make a god point. I like the idea of having your CCW permit in a wallet and showing it. There is a fine line if you should show or use. I cant wait to discuss this in my upcoming CCW class. The old rule is dont pull unless you intend to use.
 

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This is also related to a lesson I read by Masab Ayoob.

Basically, if you come upon such a scene, you have NO IDEA who the good guy is, who the bad guy is, who the undercover copr or ccw holder may be, etc.

Never introduce yourself into a situation in progress, unless you know the players and saw it go down.
 
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Let us assume for a moment that you....the one holding a subject at gun point...is totally in the right. You have either fired in righteous self defense, or have stopped an assault on your person by drawing your weapon. YOU are totally in the right for the sake of this argument.

1. Forget the mall ninja crap. If you want to play cop...go through the academy and become a reserve or sworn officer.

What you should be doing is covering the downed subject with your gun while you are on the phone with 911 dispatch. Describe yourself and the incident. You will probably be instructed to remain on the line until officers arrive. This being the case, lower your weapon slowly to the ground WHEN OFFICERS ARRIVE, and have not yet exited their cruisers.

Keep your hands visible, and DO WHAT THEY TELL YOU. You WILL be proned out, probably cuffed. Do not resist or talk tactical teddy ****. Be calm, and understand the officers know YOU from nobody.

Personally, since I retired from LE and am no longer paid to run to the sound of gunfire...unless my tender *** or the collective asses of my family or a child are in danger...I am a good witness.

Carrying a gun does not make you a "defender". It does not make you a cop. It does not make you a cape wearing crusader for truth, justice, and the american way. It makes you an ULTRA responsible person who is concerned with the defense of yourself and your family.

Along with your carry gun, bug, spare ammo, tacticool knife and uber flashlight...please have common sense in your survival kit.
 

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Let us assume for a moment that you....the one holding a subject at gun point...is totally in the right. You have either fired in righteous self defense, or have stopped an assault on your person by drawing your weapon. YOU are totally in the right for the sake of this argument.

1. Forget the mall ninja crap. If you want to play cop...go through the academy and become a reserve or sworn officer.

What you should be doing is covering the downed subject with your gun while you are on the phone with 911 dispatch. Describe yourself and the incident. You will probably be instructed to remain on the line until officers arrive. This being the case, lower your weapon slowly to the ground WHEN OFFICERS ARRIVE, and have not yet exited their cruisers.

Keep your hands visible, and DO WHAT THEY TELL YOU. You WILL be proned out, probably cuffed. Do not resist or talk tactical teddy ****. Be calm, and understand the officers know YOU from nobody.

Personally, since I retired from LE and am no longer paid to run to the sound of gunfire...unless my tender *** or the collective asses of my family or a child are in danger...I am a good witness.

Carrying a gun does not make you a "defender". It does not make you a cop. It does not make you a cape wearing crusader for truth, justice, and the american way. It makes you an ULTRA responsible person who is concerned with the defense of yourself and your family.

Along with your carry gun, bug, spare ammo, tacticool knife and uber flashlight...please have common sense in your survival kit.
This raises a lot of good points, cessna.

I NEVER carry my gun without having my cell phone with me.

This not nly allows you to be in constant contact with 911, it also allows you to be the FIRST to call the police, even if you pull your weapon and the bad guy just takes off. I can't believe the stories I read (if they're true) of folks claiming to have stopped a threat without firing and then just going home.

You don't want to have to explain yourself if he chooses to turn the tables and call 911 with a "man with a gun" report against you.
 

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All you guys make a god point. I like the idea of having your CCW permit in a wallet and showing it. There is a fine line if you should show or use. I cant wait to discuss this in my upcoming CCW class. The old rule is dont pull unless you intend to use.
In my jurisdiction you MUST carry your permit on you if you carry concealed. When I get pulled over for speeding or whatever, the first thing out of my mouth in response to "license and registration" is to identify myself as holding a valid permit and as carrying concealed, whether in the glove box, on my person or whatever, and to offer to exit the vehicle so s/he may temporarily secure the weapon and avoid misunderstanding while retrieving my paperwork. Doing so raises you from about zero cred in the cop's eyes to a pretty high state of cred -- once he verifies your permit, he knows you aren't a felon, that you are known in a positive or at least neutral way by the local PD, that you are courteous, cautious and respectful, and probably pretty smart. These things can keep you from getting hurt or having to answer a lot of awkward questions -- and almost always from getting that ticket (remember the ticket?) which you assuredly deserved.
 

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You'd be well served to review the laws regarding "brandishing," "menacing," and "harassment."
For his particular jurisdiction, of course.
 

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It is ridiculous to think that you have to shoot when you draw. You only draw if you are prepared to shoot but you don't have to bust a cap mall ninja style.
 

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Ok first off if you draw your gun be prepared to shoot first. If an intruder in my home can give up fast enough not to get shot then I will hold him at gun point untill I can get some thing to secure him with. Such as Duct Tape or my hand cuffs (Im not a cop and dont ask) what ever I can use and is handy. If I can secure the BG then I would hoster my fire arm and wait for the cops to show up. If you are sipping on coffe at the breakfast table and the BG is secured then there isnt any question as to who is the BG and who lives there. Again I can't stress the speed in which a BG would have to give up to stop from being shot. It would have to be instantaneous almost at the speed of light.


Before some one says how do you secure the BG and hold a gun........ Think about it I have the power and the BG wants to give up so have him cuff him self. Or have him tape his legs together while he sits in the corner. Its that simple.
 
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