[Unholster ur mind]

Hello everyone. I would like to gather some wisdom and knowledge from you all about target shooting terminology.

1)How do you measure a "grouping" on a target sheet? What unit of measurement do you use?

2)What is considered to be "good shooting" and why (in terms of rifles, pistols, shotguns from ranges of 10 to 200 ft. or more).

3)By how much will your accuracy decrease under high stress (in a shoot out)?

Thank you!

 

[Neomonk21]

1) You measure the distance between the two shots that are furthest apart in the grouping. This measurement is done in inches. For example, if you shoot five shots and the furthest distance is 3", then your grouping is 3".

2) I consider good shooting when I keep my shots consistently in the same place. This means I am accurate and just need to work on my precision. If I'm consistently low but in a tight group I can adjust the sights or adjust where I'm aiming. This is the same for pistols and rifles. For shotguns, good shooting is hitting more clay pigeons than not. I try my best to do the same thing each time I shoot. Take my time, aim, and squeeze the trigger.

3) I have no personal experience with firing under high stress. I can only imagine that your accuracy will decrease considerably. The best thing to do is to practice the basics ad nauseum until you have them down pat. That way, in a stressful situation you will do those basic things without thinking and hopefully be able to keep your accuracy.

I'm no export on shooting but I answered your questions to the best of my ability. Hopefully I'm not wrong, but if I am, please correct me.

 

[sig232]

Some indoor ranges have a combat range that will simulate a stressful situation. Many will have a low light portion of the course and you will be flashed defensive situations on a screen. You have to make decisions quickly as to shoot or no shoot.

I did some training where the instructor would give me two mags five rounds in the first and then a full mag in the second. You load the five round mag and he tells you to fire as he cranks the target back towards you. You fire your five rounds and then have to reload and continue to fire to stop the aggressor that is coming towards you. Thats creates a bit of real life stress that most shooters are not used to dealing with. It is interesting to watch beginners fumble their mags and shoot off the target.

Keeping a tight group on a fixed target is a lot different from keeping that same tight group on a moving target.

Police training may use the type of practice often to keep officers sharp.

 

[Guest]

Sorry to contridict you Neomonk but...

1. A group is a number of shots fired from the same gun with the same ammo formula. Most groups use for accuracy testing are 3, 5 and 10 with the larger groups giving better data.

Groups are measured from the center of the two shots that are farthest apart on the target. Actually most folks measure from the outside edge of one shot to the inside edge of the other shot.

2. Good shooting depends on your intended purpose. For 100 yard bench shooting 0.20 inches might be good. For deer hunting 6.0 inches might be good enough. With a naval gun 60 or more feet might be effective.

3.The effect of shooting under stress are anyones guess. It will vary from person to person and might be different for the same person in a different situation.

 

[Unholster ur mind]

Thanks a lot you guys, this sure cleared up some of the mystery. Yet I still see people saying "I shot .60 MAO" or something like that, what does that mean?

 

[Guest]

MOA is minute of angle or 1/60th of a degree. 1 inch at 100 yards is close enough for most folks though the actuall size of 1 minute at 100 yards is slightly larger.
At 200 yards it would be 2 inches.

 

[Unholster ur mind]

MOA is minute of angle or 1/60th of a degree. 1 inch at 100 yards is close enough for most folks though the actuall size of 1 minute at 100 yards is slightly larger.
At 200 yards it would be 2 inches.

Oh yeah, I remember converting angles to minutes in Trig.

But what exactly is it measuring? The angle at which you shot or the angle at which the the bullet holes are from one-another (two at a time of course)?

 

[Guest]

If we were perfect shots it would measure the standard deviation of your rifles ability to place bullets on a single point.
The example you used probably meant the he shot X number of bullets and the extreeme spread was 0.60 inches.

 

[Unholster ur mind]

Thanks Swampster.

 

[marksiwel]

While we are asking

At what distance on the Range should I be shooting at?

I just tend to go to whatever is open.
7, 15 and 25 yards.

Also how many bullets should I use on a target. 10, 20, 50? When should I be changing targets? Every magazine?

 

[Unholster ur mind]

While we are asking

At what distance on the Range should I be shooting at?

I just tend to go to whatever is open.
7, 15 and 25 yards.

Also how many bullets should I use on a target. 10, 20, 50? When should I be changing targets? Every magazine?

Excellent questions, I could use the answers as well.

 

[Neomonk21]

While we are asking

At what distance on the Range should I be shooting at?

I just tend to go to whatever is open.
7, 15 and 25 yards.

Also how many bullets should I use on a target. 10, 20, 50? When should I be changing targets? Every magazine?

Once again, I'm not expert but this is what I do...

I don't go to a range. I shoot in my uncle's backyard. I shoot at about 15 yards. I'll shoot 5 shots to see how I'm doing then save that target for later. I'll get a new target and shoot 5 more shots. These shots are ones where I take my time and breath and try to do the best I can. Once I'm satisfied with my shot placements I'll put the used targets back on and then shoot at a faster rate of fire to practice controlling the pistol. I'll shoot the target until I can't see where my shots are hitting (usually after 20 or so shots). I don't go crazy here, I'm probably only shooting one shot a second.

I think its just a matter of personal preference. You can get those sticker targets that will patch holes and let you reuse your original targets. When I shoot my 9mm or my .45ACP I'll reuse my targets that I used for my .22LR. You can easily see the difference between the hole sizes to tell where you shot. Really the only time I use a new target is if I'm practicing aiming to get my groupings as small as possible, or if the target is so shot up that I can't tell where I'm hitting.

Sometimes I'll step back to 25 yards to shoot. I usually do this with my .22LR that has a red dot scoop because its more challenging this way. I have not shot any closer than 15 yards. I believe 7 yards is the max distance of a typical self-defense situation (I'm not sure on the exact fact). So you practice there because if the situation would arise, you would be shooting at that distance or closer. Hopefully someone with more experience can elaborate on the different distances.

 

[Neomonk21]

Sorry to contridict you Neomonk but...

Don't be sorry. Thats what I'm here for, to learn. I answered it to the best of my knowledge and welcomed any corrections. I did not previously know that it is measured from the center or from outer-to-inner. This forum has a great atmosphere for the "newbies". Any other forum would welcome newbie questions with flames which makes it so I'm afraid to post. I don't feel that here and am glad I can try to contribute while learning as much as possible.

 

[Guest]

Glad to help.

We need a pistol shooter to step up and answer that last question.

My turn to soak up a little info.

 

[sig232]

Once again, I'm not expert but this is what I do...

I don't go to a range. I shoot in my uncle's backyard. I shoot at about 15 yards. I'll shoot 5 shots to see how I'm doing then save that target for later. I'll get a new target and shoot 5 more shots. These shots are ones where I take my time and breath and try to do the best I can. Once I'm satisfied with my shot placements I'll put the used targets back on and then shoot at a faster rate of fire to practice controlling the pistol. I'll shoot the target until I can't see where my shots are hitting (usually after 20 or so shots). I don't go crazy here, I'm probably only shooting one shot a second.

I think its just a matter of personal preference. You can get those sticker targets that will patch holes and let you reuse your original targets. When I shoot my 9mm or my .45ACP I'll reuse my targets that I used for my .22LR. You can easily see the difference between the hole sizes to tell where you shot. Really the only time I use a new target is if I'm practicing aiming to get my groupings as small as possible, or if the target is so shot up that I can't tell where I'm hitting.

Sometimes I'll step back to 25 yards to shoot. I usually do this with my .22LR that has a red dot scoop because its more challenging this way. I have not shot any closer than 15 yards. I believe 7 yards is the max distance of a typical self-defense situation (I'm not sure on the exact fact). So you practice there because if the situation would arise, you would be shooting at that distance or closer. Hopefully someone with more experience can elaborate on the different distances.

I think most pistol accruacy testing is done at the 25 yard point. My indoor range has a max of 50 feet so I am restricted to that distance. I do most of my target work at that distance.

For combat training or the small pistols I will bring the target in closer but never less than 21 feet (7 yard rule).

I don't get into the rapid fire stuff much anymore unless I am in the woods just spitting out ammo in my Mini-14. To improve accuracy you need to work on drills where you do double taps and practice on recoil recovery. Bullet placement is the key not how many bangs you can get off in a minutes time.

 

[TX1911]

Also how many bullets should I use on a target. 10, 20, 50? When should I be changing targets? Every magazine?

That's going to depend on your use and personal preference. If you like a nice, clean target for each magazine, or whatever, post a new one when you feel like it. The range I go to has about a 10 minute cease-fire for every 20-30 minutes of the range being hot. When I post my original target, I put up two. So, in any given period, I'll put about 20-30 rounds per target. But that's my preference. I've seen people put up five or six targets and work on their grouping, but that has typically been when they were testing their handloads.

And, as far as distance, again, it's what you want to do. If you are trying to train for a realistic situation, try to mimic that situation as much as possible at the range. If you're trying to demonstrate proficiency for a CHL class or something, find out what the distances are that you would be shooting, and practice those.

But whatever you do, practice practice practice!

 

[marksiwel]

And, as far as distance, again, it's what you want to do. If you are trying to train for a realistic situation, try to mimic that situation as much as possible at the range. If you're trying to demonstrate proficiency for a CHL class or something, find out what the distances are that you would be shooting, and practice those.

But whatever you do, practice practice practice!

I dont really know why or what I'm shooting for. I just like to go and shoot. Pistols, Rifles, what have you. I've never really thought about it.

 

[C-D-P]

3.The effect of shooting under stress are anyones guess. It will vary from person to person and might be different for the same person in a different situation.

+1. That is correct. But as an average, from studies done by LEOs and the military, between 40 and 75% degradation is about right. This number obviously changes with the individual and level of training.

In WWII on D-Day, they found that only about 10% of the troops that hit the beach even attempted to fire back.

Practice train, stress yourself, train, practice.

If you are interested, check out a couple books and read them. Two good ones are On Killing by Lt Col Dave Grossman, and Killology by the same author.

 

[HighSalute]

So my shooting stinks

2nd time out with my new Glock 42-380, 7 yard range , FMJ ammo. Here are two of my targets from earlier tonight.... one was 6 rounds, 6 hits, 3 holes. The other is 8 rounds, 8 hits, 4 holes. Please assess and enlighten me further! Honesty is the only acceptable response ~ no sugar coating wanted!!! Thanks :crazy:

 

[kansas45]

Shooting left & low, Jerking the trigger, tightening your fingers or using too little trigger finger.
Unload the weapon, double check the chamber for a round, pick a point on the wall and dry fire, keeping in mind that you don't want the sights to move off target. Put a coin on top of the barrel shroud or the reciver and practice untill the coin doesn't fall off.