[bigPicture]

Just for background -- I'm getting my concealed carry permit.

I'm in a state in which it's easy to get guns, so it's likely that many people around me have them.

...But I sometimes wonder about the logic of carrying.

After all (playing the :devil:'s advocate here):--

- In the case of a robbery, the bad guy is likely to also have a gun. It makes no sense to draw on a drawn gun... And of course you don't want to risk a shootout over stuff that's replaceable (valuables or money)... so compliance is the most sensible course of action ... so having a gun does you no good (and just gets it taken).

- In the case of assault (especially gang assault) having a gun is good. But how likely is that to happen? If you practice DEA ("deescalate, escape, and avoid" -- which only makes sense, whether you're armed or not), you're very unlikely to face an assault. So carrying (and training for carrying) in that case is almost a waste of time & expense.

- In the case of a mass shooter, having a gun is good. But those incidents are rare, and of course your best (and likely most viable) course of action is just to get the hell away.

...Plus -- given the added scrutiny (and danger) that being armed brings you in encounters with the police (traffic stops) ... and the investment required to become proficient with your weapon ($essions at the range) ... and the general dangers of being around guns (at the range, etc.) ... a case can be made that having one is less safe than not having one.

...So why am I still inclined to get my CC permit?

1. Loved ones. I feel like I'm letting them down if I don't have that means to defend them when all else fails.

2. Somehow I feel better about "DEA" if I also know that I have the means to defend myself. I know we're not supposed to play to ego, but it just feels better to be able to smile your way out of encounters with assholes when you know you're covered if that doesn't work.

3. I won't carry everyday, but I'd like to know I can do so legally the absolute moment I feel it's necessary.

4. Bullies. I'm less worried about criminals than I am the bullies. See point number 2.

So what do you think about my perspective? Please thoroughly trash it if you want -- I can take it, and I'm looking for insights here.

 

[LRDGCO]

You are going at it the right way, thinking through this, unlike many. Having said that, concealed carry is an incredible responsibility with equally incredible consequences possible. In my view, it's almost all about loved ones, including oneself. And, if loved ones merit protection, they merit protection all the time, as in carry whenever legal, not just when convenient. But that is very much an individual decision, and you are working through that in a responsible way. So, good on you and good luck.

 

[KILTED COWBOY]

I do not see your logic, with all due respect.
It almost sounds like you are talking yourself out of the decision to carry.
I do not carry because I thinks that i will be drawing my gun everyday. It is there everyday in case I need it.
And not every confrontation will turn into a shootout, just the opposite. In a shootout everyone loses.
And not carrying everyday is flawed, the day you left it at home will be the day you wish you hadn't.
Carrying is not for everyone. You must be sure of yourself, your training and your mental health.
I do hope you rethink some of your points, good for you on asking the questions.

 

[up2it]

Just for background -- I'm getting my concealed carry permit.

I'm in a state in which it's easy to get guns, so it's likely that many people around me have them.

...But I sometimes wonder about the logic of carrying.

After all (playing the :devil:'s advocate here):--

- In the case of a robbery, the bad guy is likely to also have a gun. It makes no sense to draw on a drawn gun... And of course you don't want to risk a shootout over stuff that's replaceable (valuables or money)... so compliance is the most sensible course of action ... so having a gun does you no good (and just gets it taken).

- In the case of assault (especially gang assault) having a gun is good. But how likely is that to happen? If you practice DEA ("deescalate, escape, and avoid" -- which only makes sense, whether you're armed or not), you're very unlikely to face an assault. So carrying (and training for carrying) in that case is almost a waste of time & expense.

- In the case of a mass shooter, having a gun is good. But those incidents are rare, and of course your best (and likely most viable) course of action is just to get the hell away.

...Plus -- given the added scrutiny (and danger) that being armed brings you in encounters with the police (traffic stops) ... and the investment required to become proficient with your weapon ($essions at the range) ... and the general dangers of being around guns (at the range, etc.) ... a case can be made that having one is less safe than not having one.

...So why am I still inclined to get my CC permit?

1. Loved ones. I feel like I'm letting them down if I don't have that means to defend them when all else fails.

2. Somehow I feel better about "DEA" if I also know that I have the means to defend myself. I know we're not supposed to play to ego, but it just feels better to be able to smile your way out of encounters with assholes when you know you're covered if that doesn't work.

3. I won't carry everyday, but I'd like to know I can do so legally the absolute moment I feel it's necessary.

4. Bullies. I'm less worried about criminals than I am the bullies. See point number 2.

So what do you think about my perspective? Please thoroughly trash it if you want -- I can take it, and I'm looking for insights here.

You're an idiot that just doesn't want to recognize the fact that a criminal/s will kill you just so there is no one to testify against him/them and that 911 will save your ass. Be a man and take responsibility for your own safety and your families and be accountable for every action you take and everything you say.

I personally had rather die from 10 gun shot wounds and 2 knife cuts than on my knees begging a thug with a gun for my life and the lives of my family and that is why I always carry at least 2 weapons with me at all times as I am too old to take a whuppin' and aint scared to die but am smart enough to protect my self and loved ones

I've been cut/shot/beaten/stomped/kicked back when I was young and dumb but that aint going to happen any more with no sniveling or crying about getting old or begging for mercy.

Don't know your age or anything about you, but playing the Devil's advocate with a question like this one will surely get you killed one day if you think for one minute that a criminal gives a **** about you or anyone other than himself.

Learn self defense-- not some Japanese **** that will get you killed in a street brawl and personal safety course that will teach you to always be self aware and of your surroundings and also to practice drawing your weapons without exposing yourself to your attackers and others. Silence is Golden and deadly. JMTCW

 

[Popeye]

Not an idiot. Rather, a person with a functioning brain who's playing the devils' advocate.

Good things to think about and arrive at the answers that fit your particular situation.

Add this to your continuum. https://www.nationalgunforum.com/concealed-carry/44203-higher-standard.html Read and ponder.

 

[fixitfred]

Good viewpoints and being aware of your situation and surroundings and avoiding or fleeing the fight to keep you safe is usually preferred. When I was a kid and real martial arts was being taught avoiding a fight was paramount. Just because you could kick someones arse didn't mean you should even with that Japanese shiite. I knew instructors that would beat your a$$ in class if you were bullying or getting in fights unnecessarily. Having a gun should be the same. I've had knives pulled on me and road ragers follow me home with tire irons and no one got shot because they didn't have to be. Had they asked me to get shot with their actions I would have obliged.


Time again for one of the variations of "Why Grandpa Carries a Gun"

PEOPLE ASK WHY? Why Carry a Gun?

My old grandpa said to me 'Son, there comes a time in every man's life when he stops bustin' knuckles and starts bustin' caps and usually it's when he becomes too old to take a whoopin. '

I don't carry a gun to kill people. I carry a gun to keep from being killed.
I don't carry a gun to scare people. I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place.
I don't carry a gun because I'm paranoid. I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world.
I don't carry a gun because I'm evil. I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the world.
I don't carry a gun because I hate the government. I carry a gun because I understand the limitations of government .
I don't carry a gun because I'm angry. I carry a gun so that I don't have to spend the rest of my life hating myself for failing to be prepared.
I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone. I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, and not on a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon.
I don't carry a gun because I'm a cowboy. I carry a gun because, when I die and go to heaven, I want to be a cowboy.
I don't carry a gun to make me feel like a man. I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love.
I don't carry a gun because I feel inadequate. I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am inadequate...
I don't carry a gun because I love it. I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me.

Police protection is an oxymoron .Free citizens must protect themselves. Police do not protect you from crime, they usually just investigate the crime after it happens and then call someone in to clean up the mess. Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an "ass" whoopin'..... author unknown (but obviously brilliant)

 

[SGB]

A wise man once told his troops ..... " Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."

 

[deputy]

we can "what if" the scenario all day long.........

in the end with all the variables, one can not really say what what one would do when the time comes......hide, respond, withdraw, freeze-up, etc, etc.....the threat can influence the response.....

if we are talking concealed carry, then at least you have more options providing you have the gun on you. Should you leave the gun at home.....you simply have less options available to face the possibilities and variety that may come your way....variables that can expand your list of examples by a factor of a hundred......with many of those factors offering a more favorable outcome should you be armed........

 

[up2it]

Good viewpoints and being aware of your situation and surroundings and avoiding or fleeing the fight to keep you safe is usually preferred. When I was a kid and real martial arts was being taught avoiding a fight was paramount. Just because you could kick someones arse didn't mean you should even with that Japanese shiite. I knew instructors that would beat your a$$ in class if you were bullying or getting in fights unnecessarily. Having a gun should be the same. I've had knives pulled on me and road ragers follow me home with tire irons and no one got shot because they didn't have to be. Had they asked me to get shot with their actions I would have obliged.


Time again for one of the variations of "Why Grandpa Carries a Gun"

PEOPLE ASK WHY? Why Carry a Gun?

My old grandpa said to me 'Son, there comes a time in every man's life when he stops bustin' knuckles and starts bustin' caps and usually it's when he becomes too old to take a whoopin. '

I don't carry a gun to kill people. I carry a gun to keep from being killed.
I don't carry a gun to scare people. I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place.
I don't carry a gun because I'm paranoid. I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world.
I don't carry a gun because I'm evil. I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the world.
I don't carry a gun because I hate the government. I carry a gun because I understand the limitations of government .
I don't carry a gun because I'm angry. I carry a gun so that I don't have to spend the rest of my life hating myself for failing to be prepared.
I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone. I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, and not on a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon.
I don't carry a gun because I'm a cowboy. I carry a gun because, when I die and go to heaven, I want to be a cowboy.
I don't carry a gun to make me feel like a man. I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love.
I don't carry a gun because I feel inadequate. I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am inadequate...
I don't carry a gun because I love it. I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me.

Police protection is an oxymoron .Free citizens must protect themselves. Police do not protect you from crime, they usually just investigate the crime after it happens and then call someone in to clean up the mess. Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an "ass" whoopin'..... author unknown (but obviously brilliant)

It seems to me that you have the answer already and are stirring the pot just to get a feel of what others on here think and say..

Not carrying will be the day you wished you had, but you won't know because you will be dead.
I can't run anymore and will take my chances with my training and ability to shoot straight until threat is gone. Have never missed what I aimed at yet, may not have killed it with the first shot, but it would eventually die.

 

[up2it]

we can "what if" the scenario all day long.........

in the end with all the variables, one can not really say what what one would do when the time comes......hide, respond, withdraw, freeze-up, etc, etc.....the threat can influence the response.....

if we are talking concealed carry, then at least you have more options providing you have the gun on you. Should you leave the gun at home.....you simply have less options available to face the possibilities and variety that may come your way....variables that can expand your list of examples by a factor of a hundred......with many of those factors offering a more favorable outcome should you be armed........

have yet to see any LEO or ex LEO do what you suggest--------hide, withdraw, freeze-up, etc, etc.--------always responded wit lethal force.

 

[deputy]

in the vast majority of leo encounters, concealment on approach and using cover as it is warranted is drummed into the training.....i have not witnessed charging into gunfire on an armed subject.....but more the case of immediate response to an encounter at close range.......car length distance or less.

tactical withdraws are a fact of life as the situtation calls for it....usually to regroup for the tac team and the negotiator....followed by hours of waiting.....been there and done that.....on rare occasion, it ends badly.

these available options are why the overwhelming vast majority of officers have never fired a gun in the line of duty nor taken a life......less it be up close and personal...and not time to do anything else but shoot and move...

freezing up does happen.......as we all know about the Florida deputy at the school........and officers caught flat-footed by suprise..........usually followed by a career change.

 

[bigPicture]

I've been cut/shot/beaten/stomped/kicked back when I was young and dumb.

Wow. :smile5: That's a lot of violence. I guess if I experienced that kind of violence and worked/lived in that kind of environment I'd have a different outlook.

Personally, I haven't had a fight since junior high school (though I've been tested enough).

 

[bigPicture]

Okay -- I understand and appreciate all your perspectives.

But under what specific circumstances is your gun coming out?

That's kinda what I'm looking for, a specific scenario in which you envision the tool / training / expense might be of use.

Personally, I have a hard time picturing one -- especially since it makes so little sense to draw on a drawn gun.

Btw, it may sound like I'm talking myself out of getting the permit, but believe me, I'm going to get it anyway. Still probably won't carry much though.

 

[up2it]

Wow. :smile5: That's a lot of violence. I guess if I experienced that kind of violence and worked/lived in that kind of environment I'd have a different outlook.

Personally, I haven't had a fight since junior high school (though I've been tested enough).

Hard miles and being young and dumb thinking that no one could beat me is what has made me old before my time and can't do those things anymore, so I protect myself any way I have to.

 

[up2it]

Okay -- I understand and appreciate all your perspectives.

But under what specific circumstances is your gun coming out?

That's kinda what I'm looking for, a specific scenario in which you envision the tool / training / expense might be of use.

Personally, I have a hard time picturing one -- especially since it makes so little sense to draw on a drawn gun.

Btw, it may sound like I'm talking myself out of getting the permit, but believe me, I'm going to get it anyway. Still probably won't carry much though.

Look up this guy-- Jason Hanson--Spy Briefing--maybe you can find your answer there.

 

[Zhills]

The day someone shoves a gun in your face and demands all your money and another guy who is nearby carrying and confronts him will help you make up your mind, did for me.

 

[ArthAnsgar]

First, it's good that you're putting this level of though into this, carrying, and self defense in general, is not to be taken lightly. If done right, it can save a life (or lives, as the case may be), but if done wrong, it can put yourself or others at risk.

So, why carry? For the same reason as having car insurance: you don't have it because you know you'll need it, you have it because it greatly increases the likelihood of a positive outcome if you need it. In short, I prefer to hope for the best, but prepare for the worst, it's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it, and so on.

Now, how people respond under pressure varies, most people think of flight or flight, but they fail to consider the third possibility: freeze. Nobody (and I mean nobody) knows how they will respond to the level of stress that comes from such scenarios until they are in that situation. All we can really do until then is train for it and develope muscle memory, if your gun arm already knows what to do, then you will have less to think about and will (hopefully) be less likely to freeze up in a bad situation.

 

[deputy]

But under what specific circumstances is your gun coming out?

again....the "what if" factors will effect people differently and generate a different response.....

drop yourself in the middle of this cafeteria with your family. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby's_shooting

this event in itself was one of the driving forces for concealed carry to become law in Texas.

other less notorious incidents have happened as well across this Nation......the publicity varies......but drop yourself in the middle of this specific card shop in this mall.....in this case, a passive response by shoppers got people killed.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_Square_shooting

how about watching a movie.......and say your are in row No. 3 as in very close when this even unfolds in front of you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora,_Colorado_shooting#Shooting

how would your response be different if you was in row No. 40? as compared to row No. 3? This is the variable of location, lighting, numbers of people between you and the nut case, dealing with the panic of the herd, escape options, hide options, etc, etc........in a dark crowded movie theatre........

the one thing for certain after such events......gun sales increase simply because of two things....
1. some folks think carrying a gun gives them options and a chance...its a wake-up call
2. the increased calls for gun control sparks a backlash from folks who do not want the govt and politics to limit their options.

 

[bigPicture]

The day someone shoves a gun in your face and demands all your money and another guy who is nearby carrying and confronts him will help you make up your mind, did for me.

I dunno. I'm not sure that when a bad guy has a gun in someone's face is the time to "confront" him.

Even if you plan to resist, you "wait your turn".

At the end of the day, money can be replaced. That guy who "confronted" the bad guy while he had a gun "in your face" did you no favors. I think you're lucky it turned out as well as it did.

 

[Square target]

"- In the case of a robbery, the bad guy is likely to also have a gun. It makes no sense to draw on a drawn gun... And of course you don't want to risk a shootout over stuff that's replaceable (valuables or money)... so compliance is the most sensible course of action ... so having a gun does you no good (and just gets it taken)."


Go to youtube and watch a bunch of self defense video's(of actually robberies). You will see many times they don't have guns, sometime they have other weapons or just pretend they have one or if they do they aren't loaded/chambered and many are piss poor shots because they don't go to the range and practice. Obviously if someone has a gun right to your head it will be different but that;s where situational awareness comes into play. Pay attention to what's going on around you, people who might be following or targeting you etc and be ready beforehand. In other words keep your face out of your phone and try not to be preoccupied with other things. Also don't just think that if you hand over your phone, wallet and watch that you'll be fine, many criminals will kill you after they get what they want, especially 3 strike felons. Dead people can't ID suspects. I've seen some videos where people will hand over their stuff which preoccupies the criminal for a second giving them enough time to draw and shoots while their hands are full and they are looking at the loot. Deputy brought up a great point too, no one knows ow they will react in a robbery situation, even trained people can freeze and sometimes people with no training just get pissed off and come out on top. Of course if you don't carry you'll never know......

This guy has a ton of good videos.