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Discussion Starter #1
GENERAL SUBMACHINE GUN (GSG) DESIGN COMPETITION​

notthistimenet001 sample submission

Historically, in a SHTF situation, finer weapons are usually considered a luxury, and it is necessity that most often determines the weapons used. Those needs usually consist of: Effectiveness, Expediency (quick, easy, inexpensive) and Reliability (simple and sturdy).*

Other factors can be added, but this is a good start.

Germany produced highly advanced weapons in WWII that arguably launched the entire world into new technological realms.

Panzer and Tiger tanks for example, had the advantages of thicker armor and bigger guns but they required more maintenance and complex repairs, they were subject to weather, were slower, had poor fields of view and were at great disadvantage without infantry support. And despite the vulnerable nature of thin-skinned weak-gunned Shermans and T34s, these quicker and lighter tanks had greater maneuverability, were less complicated, and were therefore more reliable. They were also cheaper and more quickly produced, and therefore were fielded in greater numbers. Like swarming ants, they often won the day with sheer numbers and mobility.

With the situation of the cold war, many wonderful things can be done that give someone an edge over their enemies. Like the F16. But more commonly, self defense is a hasty situation. And especially true for individuals, suddenly needing to defend one's self usually results in use of a tire-iron, a table leg or fingernails. In other words, a hasty weapon.

Necessity drove the Allies to develop the Sten and the M3A1 “Greasegun” SMGs. And though superior SMGs existed such as the Tommy gun, both of these cheap SMGs took less than a month to design and field for trials. Basically, due to price, six Greaseguns in door-to-door fighting was better than one Tommy. And despite the problems with such hasty designs, the advantages outweighed those of what would be considered superior SMGs. On the whole, these cheap tubes, springs and levers that were thrown together by our engineers, are considered to be tools that were essential to winning the war.

Americans may never be forced to make SMGs in their homes. But if there were a suspension of the Constitution or we were invaded by foreign forces, necessity may drive us to do so. In Gerard Metral's book Do It Yourself Submachine Gun, he quotes a survivor of the Jewish Warsaw Ghetto uprising against the German Army as saying - “There is one thing I regret very much: I didn't have a submachine gun.”

Automatic weapons make people difficult to defeat. That is precisely why they are largely illegal for the common victim/citizen.

In these sentiments and the spirit of American ingenuity, I propose a competition.

The rules for this competition are as follows:

Designers submit designs for a General Submachine Gun (GSG). Use of the word “General” is important, since the goal of designs is to produce a submachine gun design that can be generally produced by nearly anyone.

Each design will be known by its maker's username, followed by an appropriate model number as follows; 001, 002, 003, etc. And any necessary revisions; 001a, 001b, 001c. My own sample submission would be notthistimenet001.

Each submission, either by model number or revision will be judged by each of the following design specifics:

1- while it may contain elements from other designs, the whole design must be easily considered original.

2- must be plausibly built in numbers by someone of minimal metal working skills with common shop tools. Perhaps someone's garage.

3- must consist largely of readily available materials that are not easily identified as gun parts when obtained.

4- must be of simple and general design (not engineered to specs). As a design may be used by many makers in many locations, a general design allows for local variations, innovation and supplemented parts.

5- must incorporate the reliability of a “sloppy” action. This design specific is derived from the fact that a sloppy action design is easier to produce and is generally observed to function better in adverse conditions.

6- must be compact enough for covert operations.

7- must be designed to use conventionally available ammo.

8- must be design for full-auto operation. Though blowback operation that is delayed by weight and/or spring is often considered the easiest method of providing delay, it is not a design specific, other innovations in delay may trump this.

9- must not require any complicated accessories (ie. proprietary magazines, engineered parts, etc).

10- must be cost effective for the production of only 1 or many. That difference can be significant, as anyone who's worked in fabrication knows well.

11- The gun must be able to be reliably kept in a safe mode, whatever that mode may be. Such as, a weapon that cannot accidentally load a round into the chamber, thereby increasing the risk of accidental discharge. If the breech block (bolt) is capable of resting on an empty chamber it would completely fulfill this requirement, unless, if the weapon were to be dropped, the jolt could perceivable cycle the bolt and risk slam-fire. Other reliable designs may trump this.

Designs are not intended to be limited to one simple form of fabrication, or other limiting factors. If a design has can plausibly incorporate kitchen appliance, carburetor, fishing reel, and bicycle parts, let it be judged accordingly.

With this exception; while simply ordering individual parts from various machine shops and fabricators around the country or the world, could provide a solution to many of the challenges of producing such a weapon, for these purposes let's assume that this is not possible. Let's assume that international, and overland supplies are very limited or under severe scrutiny. Probably at this point, in-stock supplies are all that are available. Time to use your Krugerrands or trade chicken eggs and cigarettes for materials and fuel.

Designers may contribute multiple designs and may continually provide newer versions of their designs, as the ultimate goal of this contest is to present the best designs for Americans, should such need ever arise. Designers may also declare a design “withdrawn”; under which scoring may cease.



JUDGING AND SCORING
For each of the above 11 rules, each judge will give a rating of 0 through 9. A score of 0 means the design does NOT meet the rules' requirement, and 9 means the design meets the rule's requirements PERFECTLY.

Under these parameters, a weapon design that DOES meet all the rules PERFECTLY would score 99 points from a judge. And a design that does NOT meet any of the rules at all, would score a 0.

Obviously, unless someone were to actually build all submitted designs, comparisons could not be dutifully made. Only the designs themselves will be judged by the public and other designers. Anyone can judge. But each judge MUST JUDGE ALL GSG designs, or not have his judgment be considered.

Running composite average scores will indicate leading designs. Judges are encouraged to comment on designs' flaws or benefits, and make recommendations.

Judges will post their full scoring of designs, and indicate if their scoring has been revised in any way.

EXAMPLES
GhostReconMan (Judge)
gunsRus003b – (1)9, (2)4, (3)7, (4)7, (5)8, (6)7, (7)0, (8)7, (9)5, (10)7, (11)5


In this manner, the latest scores can be tallied. Scores and comments can drive further innovations.

The reward for the highest scored GSG design is the satisfaction that Americans will be that much more ready and freedom will have a better shot (pun intended).

The naming of any design of a GSG is to be done by it's judges' consensus only.

[This competition DOES NOT involve the making of weapons, just plausible designs for them. Making weapons can be dangerous and illegal. Regardless of whether you consider gun laws to be right or wrong, Constitutional or unConstitutional, the BATF and other law enforcement agencies WILL consider it a serious offense if done outside of certain laws that are lessor than the Constitution. Remember, despite their oath to the Constitution, they only listen to their masters, and do not themselves consider the unConstitutionality of any laws they enforce.]
 

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Ancient Gaseous Emanation
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54,923 Posts
That is quite a second post!
 
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Discussion Starter #3
you should see my other posts elsewhere. I get carried away when speaking to likeminded Americans. blessings
 

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Politically Incorrect
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183 Posts
Very neat! I will definatly keep track of this thread. I love stuff like this, like the "Junkyard Wars" shows and things like that.

Lets all keep in mind, that you can imagine any design you like, but if you assemble that imagination, its a felony.
 
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Discussion Starter #5
that's right. drawing up designs is completely legal. In fact, the average Joe's innovative designs are patented every day. But unless you have all your arms manufacturing paperwork in order, making any of these would be a big no no.
 

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Super Moderator
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that's right. drawing up designs is completely legal. In fact, the average Joe's innovative designs are patented every day. But unless you have all your arms manufacturing paperwork in order, making any of these would be a big no no.
There's some religious fanatics up in Michigan who were just spouting off and drawing up some plans for some crazy stuff they were imagining they were going to do and they got run through the wringer. They never did actually DO anything as far as I know. I think they are still in jail. Oh well, imagine away, I gotta go .... someone is banging on the door.

Alan
 
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Discussion Starter #7
I think they accused the hutaree group of plotting to kill police officers. If the charge is true, I hope they give them life in prison.
 

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Super Moderator
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I think they accused the hutaree group of plotting to kill police officers. If the charge is true, I hope they give them life in prison.
So if you plan to do one thing (even though you don't do it) it's a crime but if you plan to do something else (even if you don't do it) it's just a game or competition rather.

Just trying to get it straight in my mind before I start making any plans. I was planning on going fishing this weekend but if I planned to catch a LOT of fish then I guess the fish police could come raid my house on Friday evening because I was plotting to catch more than the legal limit.

Gotta be real careful these day, especially on the internet.

Alan
 
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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Alan,

uh, logic is not my forte, but I'll try. cigarettes are a legal product. buying, selling and smoking them is legal if you meet certain requirements of laws enforceable by the BATF. all the same can be said for full-auto firearms. manufacturing cigarettes is legal if you meet certain requirements of laws enforceable by the BATF. same for full-auto firearms. designing cigarettes is not a violation of any laws enforceable by the BATF. same for full-auto firearms.

Making these weapons is legal now, but under certain requirements. As noted, if such a time comes when our legal structure no longer exists, there would naturally be fewer requirements.

As for being careful, the people who began this forum and participate on it daily are courageously exercising their rights and breaking down the sensitivity that's been forced on Americans to discourage them from exercising their rights. Many people wrongly believe Americans cannot even own a gun or openly carry a gun without a license. Knowing our rights saves us from the problems of such assumptions and disinformation, but only if we are willing to exercise them. Othwerwise, rights that are not exercised aren't worth the paper they are written on.

that's my take.

The questions you pose could be posed to you concerning your Thomas Jefferson quote, don't you think? Are you planning to "throw off such government" or are you just imagining? Far more extreme than anything I've said.
 

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Super Moderator
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The questions you pose could be posed to you concerning your Thomas Jefferson quote, don't you think? Are you planning to "throw off such government" or are you just imagining? Far more extreme than anything I've said.
Thank you, that is absolutely the nicest thing anyone has said to me in a long time. I plan on participating in that activity this coming November and certainly in 2012 when we throw off the reins of Socialism once and for all in the truly American method of throwing off our tyrants. The polling place.

What I do know is that BATFE does take a dim view of folks talking about how to build homemade machine guns, suppressors, and other such frivolities and when they get to feeling like the imaginations are running a little wild they will choose one of their own to provide a spark to that imagination to see if it will catch fire. Then they'll come around shoot your wife and kid and burn your house down. Without going into those true stories in any more detail I'll just leave it with this.

Whenever I hear or see anyone talking about doing something illegal or even imagining it (much less actually putting it in print/plans/diagrams) I say something about it. I don't think it's a good idea. There is no stronger supporter of the 2nd Amendment, gun rights and overall firearm use than I, and I certainly would never discourage a discussion on gun rights or gun safety. But, when a thread about, for instance, "how to build your own sub machine gun in your basement" and trying to drum up a contest about how to do it comes up, my instinct tells me that the subject of that thread may not shed the brightest light on guns, gun rights and the 2nd Amendment, so I speak up.

Be careful what you put out for bait, lots of things may come to eat it, but I think you know that already.

Alan
 
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Discussion Starter #11
Burn my house down

" they'll come around shoot your wife and kid and burn your house down."
Alan, I've read your posts, and you and I are clearly both patriots. Don't mistake my reasoning for anything else. What you are saying is strait up clear thinking. Asking obvious questions are what makes the world go round. As for someone coming for me and killing me, one could argue, that is what the competition is ultimately about. But I'm not making that case.

As for them killing my wife and kids, let me just say this; my second daughter just entered bootcamp at Parris Island yesterday. The image of an idiot kicking a badger comes to mind.

Let me encourage you to send anyone you know who is confused about what is happening in America to read my conversation with amsterdam78.

I'm thinking of getting a "20-30%" tattoo.

preach on brother.
 

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Super Moderator
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"Shoot your wife and kid and burn your house down"

(veiled reference to Ruby Ridge and Waco, both BATF debacles in which innocent people suffered punishment at the hands of government agents far in excess of the crimes committed by their associates. Weaver made two sawed off shotguns at the request of BATF agents and they killed his wife and son and his dog. Koresh was an idiot and Zealot and a sexual pervert but all those little kids didn't deserve to die at the hands of government agents because of his crimes)

I wasn't speaking to you about your kids, wife and house personally.

Sorry to hijack your "let's make a machine gun" thread with this nonsense about legalities.

Alan
 

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Super Moderator
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In regards to the conversation you linked to, personally I would not waste any time discussing anything with Amsterdam78. Although I don't know anything about A78 he/she comes off as a real Commie Prick. I don't discuss anything with that kind except "Get the Hell off my Lawn"!

Alan
 
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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Waco

all those little kids didn't deserve to die
The part about govt saving children by murdering them seems to escape all the people who think Koresh's lunacy warranted violations of the Constitution.

The reference to Gran Torino is priceless.

As for amsterdam78, I couldn't get him to say what was really in his heart, that's why it took so long. The ending should make most Americans puke in their cheerios.
 
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Discussion Starter #15
love this site

this site and the people on it are great. Many other sites have had sensitivity to the issue of SMGs and to going to this site for competition. Not all, but about half. No love for likeminded people unless they are on their own site, I guess.

I've simultaneously posted this competition on youtube to reach even more patriots.

 
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