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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21197877/

This whole mess appears to be getting worse by the day. These guys are going to end up costing this country a fortune. I still don't understand the logic of paying mercenaries, what amounts to tens of thousands a month, to do the same thing as a combat soldier does for hundreds, with in all likelyhood, better training. Are we that short of personel? These guys are acting like a bunch of trigger happy cowboys, and now it's going to cost millions to clean up the mess they've made. Civilians pay a small fortune to be "trained" by these "Camo Cowboys", in what amounts to a weekend crash course consisting of a bunch of high priced drills with live ammo. Now it seems if you use what you learn from them, you'll be doing time in the Crowbar Hilton. I've always had reservations about these kind of places. If you've got a lot of money that you don't know what to do with, then it would be fun for a weekend of playing "Action Jackson", but other than that I wouldn't take to heart a lot of what they preach. Unless you don't enjoy your freedom. Just watch how fast Bushmaster severs all ties with them. Bill T.
 
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Spending way too much on poorly trained hired hands that we end up liable for. I couldn't agree with you more.
 

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Blackwater isn't a bunch of poorly trained anyone's. Most people in Blackwater have combat experience in the Army Rangers, Army Special Forces, Army Delta Force, Navy SEALs and Marine Force Recon. Their training program at Blackwater is intense, and lasts for more than a weekend.

Drop them a line: http://www.blackwaterusa.com
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
That may very well be but I don't understand the logic of why we're screwing with these people in the first place. If they were that well trained, they wouldn't be in this mess to begin with, would they? It's not like we don't have enough men to do the job over there. Besides it's not cost effective. These guys get big bucks when compared to Army rank and file. This is just more for the anti Iraq crowd to run with. As if they don't have enough already. This will wind up as yet another high dollar mess we'll have to clean up. It's getting real old, real fast. Bill T.
 
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they were doing there job. and blackwater isnt the only private security group opperating over there. half the convoys are run by privaters. why dont you get the full story before you start throwing around blame.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I'm not "blaming" anyone. And if you know the "full story", lets hear it. Bill T.
 

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Bill, did you ever think that maybe they're ex-soldiers, sailors and marines that felt they could do some good over there, but not under the restrictions and controls of the US Military? That's what most of them are. People who know how it should be run, so they take themselves out of the limiting organization so they can run it the way they feel it needs to be done.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Zulu7 said:
Bill, did you ever think that maybe they're ex-soldiers, sailors and marines that felt they could do some good over there, but not under the restrictions and controls of the US Military? That's what most of them are. People who know how it should be run, so they take themselves out of the limiting organization so they can run it the way they feel it needs to be done.
OK, fine. They're Ex soldiers, sailors, Marines, whatever. I never said they weren't. Does this make them without fault? Look, this whole thing isn't about nothing. There's been some serious charges leveled here. Cops are under, "restrictions and controls". They either obey them, or they are history. Why should these guys be any different, or special? Besides if they in fact, "took themselves out of the limiting organization", they're in big trouble. You simply cannot do things "the way you feel it needs to be done", or this is the result. If they're so highly trained, then they should be held to a higher standard. A lot of people died who weren't supposed to. Thats a fact they will have to answer to. I see nothing wrong with that. These guys may have very well screwed up. If thats the case, they should be held accountable, period. The military has a lot of ways of covering things up. Remember the whole mess when the gun turret on the Battleship Iowa blew up? I do. The Navy smeared a good seamans name by trying to pass off some bull$h!t story about him being gay, trying to kill himself and his lover, and a bunch of other vial crap that wasn't true. Look how long it took before they admitted Pat Tillman was killed by friendly fire. We STILL don't know the full story on that whole mess. Now there is another. All I am suggesting is there is the very real possibility these guys messed up big time. Who they are, and or how well they have been trained just makes it all the worse. Bill T.
 

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billt said:
Zulu7 said:
Bill, did you ever think that maybe they're ex-soldiers, sailors and marines that felt they could do some good over there, but not under the restrictions and controls of the US Military? That's what most of them are. People who know how it should be run, so they take themselves out of the limiting organization so they can run it the way they feel it needs to be done.
OK, fine. They're Ex soldiers, sailors, Marines, whatever. I never said they weren't. Does this make them without fault? Look, this whole thing isn't about nothing. There's been some serious charges leveled here.

Cops are under, "restrictions and controls". They either obey them, or they are history. Why should these guys be any different, or special?

Besides if they in fact, "took themselves out of the limiting organization", they're in big trouble. You simply cannot do things "the way you feel it needs to be done", or this is the result.

If they're so highly trained, then they should be held to a higher standard. A lot of people died who weren't supposed to. Thats a fact they will have to answer to. I see nothing wrong with that.

These guys may have very well screwed up. If thats the case, they should be held accountable, period.

The military has a lot of ways of covering things up. Remember the whole mess when the gun turret on the Battleship Iowa blew up? I do. The Navy smeared a good seamans name by trying to pass of some bull$h!t story about him being gay, trying to kill himself and his lover, and a bunch of other vial crap that wasn't true.

Look how long it took before they admitted Pat Tillman was killed by friendly fire. We STILL don't know the full story on that whole mess. Now there is another.

All I am suggesting is there is the very real possibility these guys messed up big time. Who they are, and or how well they have been trained just makes it all the worse. Bill T.


Cops aren't in a war zone. These guys are. You can't hold them to the same standards.

Every man and woman in this country can willingly remove themselves from the rules and regulations governing them. That's why this is a free country. Everyone is free to come and go as they please. The US Government just won't back them if they screw up after they've willingly left the protections that the rules and regulations provide.

For the most part, they are highly trained individuals participating in a global conflict of arms. The company might be US based, but it's an international PRIVATE security company. They employ persons from pretty much any nationality that meet their requirements. Did innocent people die? Yes. But you have to remember that THIS IS A WAR! Innocent people die in wars, whether intentionally or accidentally. How many innocent people do you think the USAAC killed in their bombing campaign in Germany during WWII?

Agreed, but who's going to hold them accountable? The US? The UK? The UN? We all know that the UN has no real authority in the world, and this problem falls into their jurisdiction because of the fact that it is not a US Government sanctioned organization.

Again, a peace-time incident. The Iowa turret explosion happened during a public relations event. You can't compare it to a war.

Pat Tillman's situation was a big f-up. But it was also still within the controls and regulations of the US Army, and the 75th Ranger Regiment. Definatly not a private security company.

And I would agree with you 100%. The fact that you're making generalizations and comparing it to unrelated situations is what irritates me.
 

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billt said:
Zulu7 said:
Bill, did you ever think that maybe they're ex-soldiers, sailors and marines that felt they could do some good over there, but not under the restrictions and controls of the US Military? That's what most of them are. People who know how it should be run, so they take themselves out of the limiting organization so they can run it the way they feel it needs to be done.
OK, fine. They're Ex soldiers, sailors, Marines, whatever. I never said they weren't. Does this make them without fault? Look, this whole thing isn't about nothing. There's been some serious charges leveled here. Cops are under, "restrictions and controls". They either obey them, or they are history. Why should these guys be any different, or special? Besides if they in fact, "took themselves out of the limiting organization", they're in big trouble. You simply cannot do things "the way you feel it needs to be done", or this is the result. If they're so highly trained, then they should be held to a higher standard. A lot of people died who weren't supposed to. Thats a fact they will have to answer to. I see nothing wrong with that. These guys may have very well screwed up. If thats the case, they should be held accountable, period. The military has a lot of ways of covering things up. Remember the whole mess when the gun turret on the Battleship Iowa blew up? I do. The Navy smeared a good seamans name by trying to pass off some bull$h!t story about him being gay, trying to kill himself and his lover, and a bunch of other vial crap that wasn't true. Look how long it took before they admitted Pat Tillman was killed by friendly fire. We STILL don't know the full story on that whole mess. Now there is another. All I am suggesting is there is the very real possibility these guys messed up big time. Who they are, and or how well they have been trained just makes it all the worse. Bill T.
Just a slight correction. The USS IOWA (BB-61) explosion did not happen during a "public relations event". She was performing NGFS training at the time.

Thank you.
 

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Blackwater is performing the same types of duties that private security firms have been doing for years. It's just magnified by the Iraq War.

On Sunday, CSPAN aired the Senate/Congressional inquiry into Blackwater and other security firms. They interviewed (grilled) Erik Prince, CEO of Blackwater. It was very informative and interesting to watch.

One of the statements was why do we need firms such as Blackwater in a combat zone? They provide security to high level personnel while the military concentrates on rooting out the "bad guys". Two totally different operations.

Did Blackwater screw up? I don't know but this I did learn. Blackwater has pulled a lot of our personnel out of harms way when the military couldn't get to them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
What irritates me is your attitude.

"Every man and woman in this country can willingly remove themselves from the rules and regulations governing them."

So you think you can just do as you damn well please. To hell with rules and regulations. Screw everyone because you happen to feel different. Total nonsense. It's called anarchy, look it up. These guys were employed by the US military. They are to do as they're told like anyone else "in a war zone", not what ever the hell they feel like, or what they think the situation warrants. Would you like your local police dept. acting in that regard? Innocents were killed. It would appear there is enough evidence to give foundation to the charges these guys acted inappropriately. This cowboy attitude they have, and that you seem to support, is what could have very well caused this whole thing. What would happen to you if you went to work tommorrow and just, "Did whatever the hell you pleased, because thats what you think needed to be done"? You would most likely be out of a job by noontime. These guys are no different. No matter how wonderful you think they may be, they are simply employees of the United States government. They need to behave accordingly, and as they were told to do. It appears thus far they didn't. They, and you seem to have a lot in common. Bill T.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
standerson said:
Blackwater is performing the same types of duties that private security firms have been doing for years. It's just magnified by the Iraq War.
I'm not saying that Blackwater, or any of the other contract labor, (that is exactly what they are, contract labor, nothing more), isn't doing any good, they are. Just don't try and compare them to some "rent-a-cop" guarding a furniture store in Newark on a Saturday night. They're responsibilitys run much higher. Gung Ho just doesn't cut it. In fact, it's what more than likely caused it to begin with. Bill T.
 

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I suspect that this is just another opportunity for the media to create an image of a "war gone bad!" An aid to the Liberal Congress and the candidates pushing to win the White House. They are digging to find anything to present the war effort in a bad light in the public's eye when marching off to the polls. Just like all the BS about torture at the Cuba base.

All contrived BS. They should kick the medias butt out of the war zone, they are nothing but trouble. They lie and make up stories to titillate the audience, similar to the National Enquirer.

I have very little faith in what I read in the press or view on TV anymore. Its slanted 80% in a manner to support a hidden agenda. Take it all with a grain of salt, so to speak! ;)

It is getting more difficult to sort out the truth as we march toward socialism! :eek: :(
 

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sig232 said:
I suspect that this is just another opportunity for the media to create an image of a "war gone bad!" An aid to the Liberal Congress and the candidates pushing to win the White House. They are digging to find anything to present the war effort in a bad light in the public's eye when marching off to the polls. Just like all the BS about torture at the Cuba base.

All contrived BS. They should kick the medias butt out of the war zone, they are nothing but trouble. They lie and make up stories to titillate the audience, similar to the National Enquirer.

I have very little faith in what I read in the press or view on TV anymore. Its slanted 80% in a manner to support a hidden agenda. Take it all with a grain of salt, so to speak! ;)

It is getting more difficult to sort out the truth as we march toward socialism! :eek: :(
Absolutely right!

As far as the Blackwater thing is concerned, as long as there have been wars, there have been mercenaries. But I would not put Blackwater in that category at all!

The African arena is a prime example of where mercenaries are operating, and have done a tremendous amount of good. How many of you have actually heard about what they're doing over there?!?!? Very few I would guess.......

By the very nature of their occupation, they are not held to the same standards as the normal military and/or police, and that's why they are so effective!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
sig232 said:
I suspect that this is just another opportunity for the media to create an image of a "war gone bad!" An aid to the Liberal Congress and the candidates pushing to win the White House. They are digging to find anything to present the war effort in a bad light in the public's eye when marching off to the polls. Just like all the BS about torture at the Cuba base.

All contrived BS. They should kick the medias butt out of the war zone, they are nothing but trouble. They lie and make up stories to titillate the audience, similar to the National Enquirer.

I have very little faith in what I read in the press or view on TV anymore. Its slanted 80% in a manner to support a hidden agenda. Take it all with a grain of salt, so to speak! ;)

It is getting more difficult to sort out the truth as we march toward socialism! :eek: :(
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,300045,00.html

Fox News Channel is reporting this, and the Iraqi government is making the accusations. The "liberal left" is nowhere to be found. At least not yet. The "hidden agenda" here is that a bunch of contract cowboys disregarded any and all rules, as many here feel they had a right to, and killed a bunch of innocents. If they didn't they will be found innocent. If they did Blackwater will be reduced to teaching weekend warrior's the art of AR-15 shooting into drywall to "stop the threat". Bill T.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Come on you guys! I hate the liberal left as much as you do, but for Christ's sake stop generalizing. If you have proof the "Left" is behind this, let's see it. All I'm hearing is how we just don't understand what these guys are going thru over there. I know the Space Shuttle Astronauts are devoted, trained, intelligent, and love this country. That doesn't mean $h!t when NASA was stupid enough to launch in 38 degree weather when Morton Thiokal was on the phone telling them not to, because they would kill all 7 of them. They did it anyway! Are these clowns smarter than NASA? Doubtful. The govenment hires, and is composed of "intelligent idiot's. This is yet another example of both. Bill T.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
"Cops aren't in a war zone"

I suggest you tell that to a squad room full of cops who are about to go out on patrol in Compton, California or National City. They just might have something to say about your ill concieved statement and ideas. Bill T.
 

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You may be right BillT, I have no way of knowing for sure.

I do know this though, the Political Power in both the Iraq and Afgan theaters in conjunction with the Controlling Muslims will always take the "get out of our country stance" in the Media. The bad guys shoot at us out of a crowd or from a Mosque full of people and then run to the media when we shoot back.

A "Blackwater" is much more feared and effective since it does not have to operate in the middle of the political game that this war is now entering. Thats why Congress is so mad and is stirring up the pot. The media shoot film and presents a portion of that film that supports their position, then Congress attacks the military for murder of civilians. They are not there, in a war zone and can't possibly know whats going on daily in the streets.

Fox plays along to an extent, and if they push it as truth then I would tend to believe it since its about the only news outlet that I think gives a fair accounting of both sides of the argument any more.

Our local paper puts the body count of our soldiers in each day. They then put up all the pictues of the injured civilians in Iraq, with the twist that our soldiers are the guilty parties. They don't put up any pictures of our wounded lying in the streets of Irag. Its all one sided!

I hope Blackwater goes after the Radical Muslims that are supporting the insurgants but given a "hands off" by our military leaders. Al Sadar and many others. Too much to wish for I imagine!

I am sure our CIA and contractors do bad things sometimes. But thats why they are there, to do the dirty jobs that our public can not relate to since we are too civilized and have a hard time acting like our enemy. That is why Israel is much more effective. They understand the mentality of the muslims and deal with them in a swift manner which even the uneducated camel hords can understand. The Russian KGB was feared for this same reason. All knew that if you messed with them they would kill your wife, your child and your favorite dog!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I'm not trying to make Blackwater the bad guys, or anyone else for that matter. I like seeing these guys get work. Wars aren't that easy to find if you know what I mean. I equally hate ALL Muslims. I think they should all be tossed from this country for security reasons. I think Blackwater could be just the ticket for this sort of thing. Hell, we need them more on our own soil. The politicans will always prevent the military from doing their jobs. But with that said, these guys can't go out playing Ninja Commando's because they're all hopped up on the latest issue of Soldier Of Fortune, and caffeine. Just like good, fine music, military operations need a delicate balance. Otherwise they'll look and sound like like a bunch of blacks "rappin". Bill T.
 
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