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I've seen these various scenarios play out in videos online, and I wonder how you as a cc holder would respond.

I live in what's basically a "duty to retreat" state, so these kinda scenarios are of particular interest to me:

Scenario A -- You're walking with your significant other, maybe holding hands, and two guys are coming the opposite way. One of them makes a point to walk right between you two, so that you have to split up and let him pass. He's just being a bully. You have your piece on you. How do you respond? Do you say something to him & risk starting an altercation that might lead to violence?

Scenario B -- You're walking with your SO. She's dressed sexy for Halloween. Two dudes take notice and one of them touches her ass. What do you do?

Scenario C -- You're in a convenience store with other customers and a mugger enters, draws his piece and announces a robbery. He's not only robbing the store, he's also shaking down the customers one by one. Might even take your gun. What do you do?


For me --

Scenario A -- I would have to yell something back at the guy who walked between us. I wouldn't approach him, and I would keep walking, but if he approached us I would turn & warn him not to make this violent. (Can't keep walking while keeping an eye on him at the same time.) If he initiated violence, I would use empty-handed skills only enough to buy time to get to my piece. No warnings from that point...

I know that sounds like getting into an "ego battle", but some things you just can't let slide...

Scenario B -- I would say something to the guy, then call the cops. That's sexual assault he did, so I'd make sure the guy gets a deserved rap as a sex offender. I'd follow the guys only closely enough to know where they are, so that the cops can apprehend them. If they got violent, I would use empty-handed skills only enough to buy time to get my piece. No warnings from that point...

Scenario C -- The mugger would have himself a new gun (mine). I wouldn't draw on a drawn gun and risk putting innocents in the middle of a shootout.

WWYD?
 

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Nothing
Kick his ass
Probably nothing best to let them have what is in the register and leave.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

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A) Probably let it go, as frustrating as it is, his own inadequacies that he is compensating for are likely far more painful than any humiliation I can inflict.

B) Give him a good arse-chewing, but resort to physical violence only if legitimately necessary. Probably no need to get the police involved unless things escalate.

C) This seems like a pretty clear cut self-defense scenario to me. Military training dictate the use of minimum force necessary to defuse the situation and neutralize the threat. If I draw my gun and the assailant flees, then the threat is no more, but if said individual turns their weapon on me, then, as the saying goes, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
 
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I do not care to respond to cookie cutter scenarios. If I or my beloved are assaulted I will take necessary and appropriate actions to stop the perpetrator(s). If a store is robbed (armed robbery) my actions, if any, will be driven by the situation. It is easy to say that we would not risk drawing (armed response) because of the armed robber or because innocents might be hurt, but situations can go south in a hurry and drawing/shooting might be the only means to stop further bloodshed. Sometimes you might have to do the right thing regardless of possible consequences. The day I let possible prosecution stop me from saving another or interceding to stop violence is the day I stopped being a real man. But if there is no violence, do not start it!
 

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What you typed out will have way to many open ends, very low information on the people, and lots LOTS of what ifs. No one can say with 100% certainity with what they will do in your fantasy senairos. Only the people in real time, place, day / night would know what they're experiencing and how to act in response. Everyone is different and so would be the people in your stories - guy walking in-between, the $%$ toucher, and the mugger. Though I will say calling the cops on some passer by touching your girl and telling them to arrest the person for rape? You'll be extremely lucky if them come out and if you tell them you're following him there good indication they will tell you to stop. Yet you might get arrested for stalking, assault, you "went looking" for the fight when some guy touched your girls $%$# Guess you forgot the run away law in your state. Possibly you might have jealousy and or anger management issues and they would question you … and how old are you, 15 / 17? "...empty hand skills..."
 

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I feel it's good to review as many scenarios that you can imagine. Nothing like making a good decision in the comfort of your favorite chair. Having the benefit of discussing it with others and having minutes, hours or even days to arrive at the best answer. It gives you something to mentally train with because in real life you may have to make life and death decisions in fractions of a second and the wrong choice may end your life or have lifelong consequences sitting in a jail cell. It's natural to make emotional reactions but many cannot be justified in a court of law.

Your first two scenarios evoke an emotional response but deadly force is certainly not authorized. You need to plan for that so you don't react inappropriately.

You just bought your fiancé a $5,000.00 diamond ring and you are showing it to her then a guy much faster than you comes by grabs it and runs...
Your initial reaction and instinct may be to stop him before he gets away. How? Pull your gun and shoot him.
Wrong answer. -- Decision time 0.50 to 1.75 seconds -- Time to live with your wrong decision possibly the rest of your life.

Your last one could get touchy as It's better to give up your cash and property and be on your way unharmed albeit pissed off. The catch is you need to make a reasonable guess as to what his intentions are. Is he going to hurt or kill anyone? I will probably never try to outdraw someone. I may draw on someone who already has a gun out. I would have to demonstrate techniques I may use. I would only do this if I made a determination that he may hurt someone especially a loved one.
 

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I feel it's good to review as many scenarios that you can imagine. Nothing like making a good decision in the comfort of your favorite chair. Having the benefit of discussing it with others and having minutes, hours or even days to arrive at the best answer. It gives you something to mentally train with because in real life you may have to make life and death decisions in fractions of a second and the wrong choice may end your life or have lifelong consequences sitting in a jail cell. It's natural to make emotional reactions but many cannot be justified in a court of law.
Not looking to change peoples ideas just giving good points on these what ifs scenarios, which we see from time to time. I'm not big on what if scenarios. For one reason, when will the what ifs stop for each scenario? Way to many variables though I will somewhat side with thinking on how to react though its only one reaction out of thousands n possibly hundreds of thousands more. One goes crazy with thinking of each possible scenario. Even police are not 100% trained for each individual encounter they meet, though they have training.

There's a difference in being prepared to react and fantasy what if scenarios. Arm chair talking will do nothing in the actual event of something happening, its just talk with no physical encounter n emotions flaring and adrenaline racing. If someone needs to react to a real situation, training will get this done. Even then training wont even get you 100% prepared for everything, though it will for most. Taking classes in your state firearm and self defense laws is a huge benefit. Taking an accredited firearm self defense training course is snother very good class to take and imo a must. This will not only teach you proper use of surroundings and shooting techniques n skill settings, it will get you knowing your firearm.

I will even include taking a accredited class on firearm retention, because when you're using "empty hand skills" its important to keep the other guys hands off your holstered firearm if he feels or sees it on you. Now, if one does not want to take a firearm retention class then learning Krav Maga would be best. Out of all the martial arts and self defense systems I took Krav was best. Why? This is for another thread. Though all the training one gets it will do nothing if one does not even venture far from his couch, and just post what if scenarios. Going out and interacting with people, observing / observing body posture - how they walk, tone of voice - clothing etc, watching / watching facial expressions - eyes - fidgety nervousness agitated etc, will help.
 

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My turn. Avoid potential areas these issues could come up. If you must go in an area keep aware of your surroundings and get away from anyone you see that makes you feel uncomfortable. Situational awareness can go a long way. My area has changed a lot the last 5 years. I have changed my routines in accordance.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
What you typed out will have way to many open ends, very low information on the people, and lots LOTS of what ifs. No one can say with 100% certainity with what they will do in your fantasy senairos. Only the people in real time, place, day / night would know what they're experiencing and how to act in response. Everyone is different and so would be the people in your stories - guy walking in-between, the $%$ toucher, and the mugger. Though I will say calling the cops on some passer by touching your girl and telling them to arrest the person for rape? You'll be extremely lucky if them come out and if you tell them you're following him there good indication they will tell you to stop. Yet you might get arrested for stalking, assault, you "went looking" for the fight when some guy touched your girls $%$# Guess you forgot the run away law in your state. Possibly you might have jealousy and or anger management issues and they would question you … and how old are you, 15 / 17? "...empty hand skills..."
This response is all over the place.

Let's see if I can help.

For one, I'm asking what people here would do because presumably many of you are experienced concealed carriers. As a noobie, it's interesting how experienced people would feel it's best to respond to these actual real-life situations that actually happened to others, as documented on video.

For two, yes everyone is different, thus the question. I think I got a decent range of insights (and some revealing consensuses) exactly because everyone is different.

Whether the bad guys are different or not is immaterial -- we only know them by their acts: eg. grabbing asses, walking between couples, robbing stores, etc. If there's some relevant detail you think I left out about the bad guys, please let me know.

Three -- (and most importantly) -- touching someone's ass is sexual assault. No, you can't shoot someone for it, but if it's your wife, daughter, gf -- even you -- you should indeed report it. (No one called it "rape", btw.) And following them to be able to convey their location to cops is "iffy" (good point!), but I would want to make sure something is done about guys who grab the asses of random women.

Following a perp to report them happens all the time. I don't think anyone would interpret that as a "jealousy" or "anger" issue if you want to ensure that a sexual assaulter doesn't remain on the streets. If that's the case, then most men have jealousy and anger issues.

...But, again, point taken about "following" being a gray area. I'm guessing that's one of the reasons you believe Zimmerman should've been locked up.

Four -- I'm not a teenager, and it's "empty-handed skills". If you've never heard the term, it's colloquial for being able to fight without a weapon. That is, if someone is pummeling you, first thing to do is cover yourself with your empty-handed skills rather than get knocked out and have your weapon taken. For further insight, see "Empty-Handed Skills Are Critical For Firearms Carriers And This Is Why!"

Anyway -- other than calling me juvenile, thanks for your insights. :thumbsup:
 

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I think zhillis had the best responses to the set up scenarios. The first one though i would have side stepped if possible. If you see them coming and you're paying attention you could probably tell the guy was going to try and break between the two of you so just move. Someone trying to walk between you two would be a good chance for a pick pocket type robbery being he is essentially brushing up against you. Call the cops on #2 and a quick picture of the guy if possible wouldn't hurt. On number 3 you would have more opportunity to seek cover, draw and shoot because it's a store where there is probably multiple people. It's nearly impossible for one robber to keep track of multiple people during a robbery. Fantasy over...
 

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Get training. Getting home safely is what this is all about. Determining a REAL threat to your life, VS wounded pride.

A&B are pitches in the dirt, move on, get out of there fast.

C seems unlikely, ONE guy shaking down a group, at a public market ? But response might be justified, if you perceive your life is in danger. The guy, if he's doing this, is probably on a clock. Just give him the money he wants, he's probably not going to stick around, on the chance somebody has the Hope Diamond in their pocket.
 

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Scenario A -- Let it go.

Scenario B -- Stand back and watch my wife put the fear of God into him.

Scenario C -- It depends on the situation. Is my wife with me? Do I have a chance to take cover? Is there others in the store that can distract the robber, so I can draw my weapon? If the situation allowed, I would pop a cap in the robber's melon, because you don't know if he plans to leave witnesses or not.
 
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This response is all over the place.

Let's see if I can help.

For one, I'm asking what people here would do because presumably many of you are experienced concealed carriers. As a noobie, it's interesting how experienced people would feel it's best to respond to these actual real-life situations that actually happened to others, as documented on video.

For two, yes everyone is different, thus the question. I think I got a decent range of insights (and some revealing consensuses) exactly because everyone is different.

Whether the bad guys are different or not is immaterial -- we only know them by their acts: eg. grabbing asses, walking between couples, robbing stores, etc. If there's some relevant detail you think I left out about the bad guys, please let me know.

Three -- (and most importantly) -- touching someone's ass is sexual assault. No, you can't shoot someone for it, but if it's your wife, daughter, gf -- even you -- you should indeed report it. (No one called it "rape", btw.) And following them to be able to convey their location to cops is "iffy" (good point!), but I would want to make sure something is done about guys who grab the asses of random women.

Following a perp to report them happens all the time. I don't think anyone would interpret that as a "jealousy" or "anger" issue if you want to ensure that a sexual assaulter doesn't remain on the streets. If that's the case, then most men have jealousy and anger issues.

...But, again, point taken about "following" being a gray area. I'm guessing that's one of the reasons you believe Zimmerman should've been locked up.

Four -- I'm not a teenager, and it's "empty-handed skills". If you've never heard the term, it's colloquial for being able to fight without a weapon. That is, if someone is pummeling you, first thing to do is cover yourself with your empty-handed skills rather than get knocked out and have your weapon taken. For further insight, see "Empty-Handed Skills Are Critical For Firearms Carriers And This Is Why!"

Anyway -- other than calling me juvenile, thanks for your insights. :thumbsup:



First I asked if your were 15 / 17 not calling you a juvenile, thanks for responding.

Second Zimmeran was part of a neighbor hood watch and his situation was totally different then someone $%&^ grabbing, so no he should hot even be brought up in this.

Third your scenarios are just scenarios and each and everyone is and will be different. I responded with actual insight, I'm all over? lol. You give scenarios then try to use actuality with people … not going to happen. By the way what video? Please post. Are you talking about a specific event? Both my posts have good courses of action to take, to know how to react to each of your fantasy scenarios. These did not happen to you and they are vague. And if they did happen to you then you must be specific - hence these are scenarios.

Situational awareness helps a lot. This was said before and I will stand by this response.

You seem to be on this whole $%#^ grabbing thing. Let me help...the women slaps them in the face or says something. Why don't you talk to women in your life if your so concerned and not legal firearm owners who carry concealed. Totally unrelated, why ask concealed carriers what THEY would do unless they are a female. Maybe this should have been directed to female concealed carriers. Or r you trying to instigate something? Did this just happen to you and your girl and you two fought over it?

Following happens when someone has anger issues. Empty hand empty handed skills, still the same. Last time anyone heard those words was in grade school and that link I would not even want to train with him, to each their own. Upon your thinking part...You're right you don't think or should say you're not thinking right / clearly and that's the issue here and we're trying to help. You don't follow someone who touched your wifes $%^* that is a jealousy issue and anger issue. Maybe your wife should / girlfriend should say something to him or slap / punch him. You don't even know if it was by accident or if he even knew he hit her #$%^ in some crowded mall...see what I did there I gave some specifics to your scenario. Following the guy being some stalker or now youre the guy looking to instigate the fight - only to find out he knew you were following and leads you to his "friends". Now have fun with your "empty handED skills". See, more what ifs...when will the what ifs stop?

Someone walks between you and your girlfriend? You said maybe holding hands so this scenario is not specific. Again its a scenario. You tell them not to make it violent? You already started the fight. "He initiates violence" (how old are you again? ) you already gave the go ahead to fight...you wont have time to react because of distance between you and him and there's no defense from a sucker punch AND there wont just be one guy. Takes bout eight seconds to recover from a good head strike. One will do a lot in eight seconds and there will be more then one. Most fights I see (not in movies or on tv or even in training) end up on the ground or seeing someones head smashed into the bar or throat being rammed against a corner beed. Have fun. Your tough guy talk with "empty hand skills" notion will not get you out of a fight or will it even guarantee you winning. One unseen small knife to the kidneys...

Seems with all these scenarios you want or looking for some type of tough guy response from firearm owners who carry? Use your better judgement if you carry and avoid all fights and If I were you please take up the advise I gave.

If this comes off as I'm being a DLck, I'm not. This is just me trying to understand where you're coming from and being upfront with you.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
First I asked if your were 15 / 17 not calling you a juvenile, thanks for responding.

Second Zimmeran was part of a neighbor hood watch and his situation was totally different then someone $%&^ grabbing, so no he should hot even be brought up in this.

Third your scenarios are just scenarios and each and everyone is and will be different. I responded with actual insight, I'm all over? lol. You give scenarios then try to use actuality with people … not going to happen. By the way what video? Please post. Are you talking about a specific event? Both my posts have good courses of action to take, to know how to react to each of your fantasy scenarios. These did not happen to you and they are vague. And if they did happen to you then you must be specific - hence these are scenarios.

Situational awareness helps a lot. This was said before and I will stand by this response.

You seem to be on this whole $%#^ grabbing thing. Let me help...the women slaps them in the face or says something. Why don't you talk to women in your life if your so concerned and not legal firearm owners who carry concealed. Totally unrelated, why ask concealed carriers what THEY would do unless they are a female. Maybe this should have been directed to female concealed carriers. Or r you trying to instigate something? Did this just happen to you and your girl and you two fought over it?

Following happens when someone has anger issues. Empty hand empty handed skills, still the same. Last time anyone heard those words was in grade school and that link I would not even want to train with him, to each their own. Upon your thinking part...You're right you don't think or should say you're not thinking right / clearly and that's the issue here and we're trying to help. You don't follow someone who touched your wifes $%^* that is a jealousy issue and anger issue. Maybe your wife should / girlfriend should say something to him or slap / punch him. You don't even know if it was by accident or if he even knew he hit her #$%^ in some crowded mall...see what I did there I gave some specifics to your scenario. Following the guy being some stalker or now youre the guy looking to instigate the fight - only to find out he knew you were following and leads you to his "friends". Now have fun with your "empty handED skills". See, more what ifs...when will the what ifs stop?

Someone walks between you and your girlfriend? You said maybe holding hands so this scenario is not specific. Again its a scenario. You tell them not to make it violent? You already started the fight. "He initiates violence" (how old are you again? ) you already gave the go ahead to fight...you wont have time to react because of distance between you and him and there's no defense from a sucker punch AND there wont just be one guy. Takes bout eight seconds to recover from a good head strike. One will do a lot in eight seconds and there will be more then one. Most fights I see (not in movies or on tv or even in training) end up on the ground or seeing someones head smashed into the bar or throat being rammed against a corner beed. Have fun. Your tough guy talk with "empty hand skills" notion will not get you out of a fight or will it even guarantee you winning. One unseen small knife to the kidneys...

Seems with all these scenarios you want or looking for some type of tough guy response from firearm owners who carry? Use your better judgement if you carry and avoid all fights and If I were you please take up the advise I gave.

If this comes off as I'm being a DLck, I'm not. This is just me trying to understand where you're coming from and being upfront with you.
Okay. :sosp:

In the interest of keeping it productive, I won't point out how that response is (once again) all over the place.

I'll say just these things:


  • Someone touching your wife/gf/daughter's ass is a crime -- a serious thing -- especially if they have the gall to do it in your presence... I'm sure you're all for following someone if they've committed a crime... We just have different perspectives on what's "criminal" or not.
  • Based on your emotional response, as a concealed carrier I think you could in fact learn a lot from John Correia. You should check out his videos.
...And since you're interested in my age, may I ask -- how old are you?

I'm in my 20s (though I never give my real age online). I'm guessing you're past 65 (not that there's anything wrong with that).
 

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Okay. :sosp:

In the interest of keeping it productive, I won't point out how that response is (once again) all over the place.

I'll say just these things:


  • Someone touching your wife/gf/daughter's ass is a crime -- a serious thing -- especially if they have the gall to do it in your presence... I'm sure you're all for following someone if they've committed a crime... We just have different perspectives on what's "criminal" or not.
  • Based on your emotional response, as a concealed carrier I think you could in fact learn a lot from John Correia. You should check out his videos.
...And since you're interested in my age, may I ask -- how old are you?

I'm in my 20s (though I never give my real age online). I'm guessing you're past 65 (not that there's anything wrong with that).
In my earlier comments, I said I was not interested in responding to what I called, “cookie cutter scenarios.” The reason i said that is because trying to determine how you would respond to a given situation with half the facts is stupid. You cite some videos that you have apparently observed as being the criteria by which you want folks to say what they would do, but they do not even get to see the situation to get an accurate assessment, they are left with only your remarks, with your assessment and your response to said videos that only you are fully cognizant of. I like to think, and I do hope, that those who carry a firearm will always properly assess a situation before making any sort of response. Your brief comments on the videos do not even allow any assessment of the situation, so any comments are being formed from bs in the first place! I think you watch too many videos, or play too many video games; welcome to the real world where people don’t always respond in the manner your video or your video game describes; welcome to a world full of the unexpected.

You seem a little provoked at this point in this thread, I am guessing it did not go as you expected? Learn to assess the real world around you, it is much more challenging and interesting than videos. People don’t always do what you expect. If you go around looking for a fight (sorta looks like you are) you will surely find one...and they seldom end well in the real physical world. Here at NGF you just get an argument.

I imagine you will not receive this too well, as you will perceive I gave your pride a poke. You might give QuickDraw a listen instead of a fight, he has been around, seen some things, done some things...
 

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#1. Situational awareness would have eliminated the problem.
#2. Neither I nor #1 wife would ever be in that situation, and if we were something else has gone terribly wrong.
#3. Again situational awareness would not allow the scenario to develop (for me).

Other opinions may vary.

Alan
 
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