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Discussion Starter #1
Good morning all!
So first off I have a 20 BA 223 Wylde in there premium line barrel AR15 with a muzzle brake/comp. It's free foaltwd with a 15 light weight handguard. I have a nit m16 BCG. A Madison drop in single action trigger. With a standard buffer and buffer spring.

I worked up a 223 load using Winchester small primers, hornady brass, 223cfe and hornady hpbt match 75gr bullets. I laddered tested and landed on my sweet spot of 22.0gr of powder. Running COAL of 2.250

So next I decided to work up my dope, btw I also noticed a big shift with wind even at 100yards but I'm used to 140gr bullet and I figured it's half the weight and its going to have a much greater wind shift. I don't use a Chrono so I did a bullet drop test comparing 100 yards to a 200 yard bullet drop. It dropped 6".... Using Hornady ballistic calculator ( and entering in all data ) that shows the bullet at 1750fps. The data book says that the load should 2400 and it should be at 2.8" drop based on 2400. So I tried the factory hornady black 75gr BTHP. They stated 2790 on the box, which should be a 1.86" drop. I shoot that and I get a 5.2" drop. The calc has that at 1850.
At this point I'm starting to think I'm losing my mind, so I grab my 6.5 creedmoor and do the same test. I shoot 100 then 200, enter the data into the calculator and I'm within 100 fps of the data book on this load. So now I know something is up with the gun. I notice that the gun is over gasing a bit so I put an adjustable gas block on and tune it to just lock the bolt on empty, it's ejecting right at 3. My bullet drop was ever so slightly better. At 5.8 inch drop average. So I swap my BCG to my stag BCG. Again ever so slight difference 5.75 inch drop. I look at the cases and I don't see light primer strikes. I know this is far from a hot load but this is shooting like a 22lr. The only thing I can think of is the barrel but an over $300 barrel that shoots on average .86 out of close to 100 groups, it just doesn't make sense. I know velocity doesn't equal accuracy but for there to be that big of an error in a chamber I would think the barrel would be trash.
 

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Just my two cents but I think your a little light on the powder. I believe 23 gn is the starting point with 25 gn being the max for the 75 gn BTHP. I'm loading the 62 gn Hornady BTHP using 26 gn. of CFE. Also have you checked the head space?
 

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Your powder charge seems middle of the road with Hornady load data, I am guessing that is what you are using since all your numbers agree with their data. It seems you are getting more drop that you should expect from 100 to 200, but I have only one suggestion to add that has not been mentioned already or tried by yourself. Do you have a bad batch of powder possibly? Have you used this batch in other applications with no problems? I would agree with the suggestion of using a chronograph so you really know the velocity produced too.

Welcome to NGF!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks for the input guy!
As far load using the Hornady 10th edition, my load is middle of there recommendations. That being said I do understand that their load data is known to be on the slightly low side from what I've heard.
I agree a Chrono would be a good tool to get finer numbers but I don't see them being 750fps difference from a bullet test. Also I put myself on a gun budget this year, I spent way too much the past few years so I'm being a little more careful on buying non necessities.
 

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Welcome and I'm not being critical just going by what Hodgson list on their site:

Screen Shot 2020-01-28 at 4.22.27 PM.png

I had a ***** of time coming up with data for the Hornady 62 gn BTHP, Midsouth came through on that. What Aged said about the powder is worth looking into. Also I think there is a post missing from Rivervalley:
"I ran the numbers based the Bryan Litz BC for that bullet G1 .395 at 2600fps muzzle velocity. Hodgdon had [email protected] as a start point with [email protected] being max with a 24" barrel....I "guessed" on the charge weight and barrel length differences and "assumed" 2600fps at current elevation 575' and 48 degrees.................the drop chart indicates it to be fairly close.

Keep in mind different lots of powder may be faster or slower depending on the lot and may or may not correlate with a particular reloading manual. Factor in barrel length and speed (slow barrel) could also be a contributing factor.

The best way to establish a quality drop chart is having good numbers which includes (not necessary) a good chronograph. I use a Labradar and find they are very accurate. "

Look forward to what you discover.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Sorry forgot to reply about the powder and head spacing. I tested with two different bottles of 223cfe one from Bass pro shop and one from academy. Both were very close bullet impact. But even if they were off, I wouldn't have the same issue with factory match ammo. I haven't measured head spacing but that is why I tried a different BCG, nor have I had any bad head space signs. My fire formed cases show 1.459" vs factory case starting at 1.4545". Now that I'm saying that it seems pretty tight for a 556 but I wonder being this is 223 Wylde, should the chamber be that tight?
My barrel is a 1/8 vs the Hornady data book tested with the same length 20" 1/9.
 

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Just for applications of testing standards, see what happens when you remove the muzzle break. The muzzle break on my AR10 was
useless as tits on a boar, and it effed up the function of the gas system.

Just pull it off, fire a few shots, and see what happens. And don't be surprised, if you have to re- adjust your gas block. I KNOW,
"theoretically" it's not supposed to effect anything, but you you may find it's an eye opener.
 

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Sorry forgot to reply about the powder and head spacing. I tested with two different bottles of 223cfe one from Bass pro shop and one from academy. Both were very close bullet impact. But even if they were off, I wouldn't have the same issue with factory match ammo. I haven't measured head spacing but that is why I tried a different BCG, nor have I had any bad head space signs. My fire formed cases show 1.459" vs factory case starting at 1.4545". Now that I'm saying that it seems pretty tight for a 556 but I wonder being this is 223 Wylde, should the chamber be that tight?
My barrel is a 1/8 vs the Hornady data book tested with the same length 20" 1/9.
Yeah, sorry, I read that about the factory loads you tried, and then got caught up in considering the hand loads. The brake/comp is the only thought I have left (same as Russ D already suggested). A snug chamber, in my mind, would not cause these problems. Wish I had more useful insight to offer.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Just for applications of testing standards, see what happens when you remove the muzzle break. The muzzle break on my AR10 was
useless as tits on a boar, and it effed up the function of the gas system.

Just pull it off, fire a few shots, and see what happens. And don't be surprised, if you have to re- adjust your gas block. I KNOW,
"theoretically" it's not supposed to effect anything, but you you may find it's an eye opener.
Sorry forgot to reply about the powder and head spacing. I tested with two different bottles of 223cfe one from Bass pro shop and one from academy. Both were very close bullet impact. But even if they were off, I wouldn't have the same issue with factory match ammo. I haven't measured head spacing but that is why I tried a different BCG, nor have I had any bad head space signs. My fire formed cases show 1.459" vs factory case starting at 1.4545". Now that I'm saying that it seems pretty tight for a 556 but I wonder being this is 223 Wylde, should the chamber be that tight?
My barrel is a 1/8 vs the Hornady data book tested with the same length 20" 1/9.
Yeah, sorry, I read that about the factory loads you tried, and then got caught up in considering the hand loads. The brake/comp is the only thought I have left (same as Russ D already suggested). A snug chamber, in my mind, would not cause these problems. Wish I had more useful insight to offer.
I agree that muzzle brake might be the problem. I just can't make sense of that much velocity loss. I've changed point of impact by changing muzzle devices but it was consistent. If it were a 2" drop with one brake from 100 to 200yds it would still have the same drop with another just different point of impact.

I agree also about tight chamber, in my mind it should increase pressure. And the fact that there test barrel is 1/9 vs mine at a 1/8 twist, I feel like that would increase pressure with a slower twist being there is more time in the exposed to gas pressure in the barrel.

I will be testing out no muzzle brake on Friday. I've reached out to B.A. barrels to see if they may have some clarity. This thing is driving me nuts!
 

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I agree that muzzle brake might be the problem. I just can't make sense of that much velocity loss.
I can guarantee you the muzzle brake isn't causing your velocity to drop.

You have .005 headspace based off new brass to fired.....I don't how much you are bumping the shoulders back during the resize process.It's not enough to make a significant difference in velocity.

Until you actually shoot across a chronograph it's nothing more than pure speculation. The numbers on a box of factory ammo mean nadda.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
My shoulder bump is Sammi spec full resize. On an AR I've been told to bump shoulders in between .003 and .005 and being Sammi dies put me at .005 that's where I stayed for ease.

I know FPS on a box is for marketing and not necessarily true but when I have a six inch drop on any 223 bullet that doesn't make sense through a Chrono or not. There is no reason a 223 should be effected by gravity that much unless it's going slow. I would expect 3 inches being it's a 75gr vs a 55gr that's close to 2 inch drop.

Thank you for all the input everyone! It's definitely helped me look into possibilities that I hadn't thought of trying to troubleshoot.
 

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Maybe I'm finally starting to loss my mind. Using two different BC calculators I'm getting completely different results then you. Am I doing something wrong? It wouldn't be the first time, but I ran the same info on my 6.5 on the same day and showed accurate bullet drop vs velocity on my hand loads and factory eldm's on this gun. Attached are screenshots of 1750fps compared to 2400fps on two different BC's. I feel the Hornady calc should be more accurate being it allows you to enter in more environment information. But please let me know if I'm making some over sight.

What calc are you using?
 

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Here is where you are confused I believe.

Notice what I circled in black.....1moa at 200yrds is 2" (actually 2.094)....5.97moa is almost 12" of drop with a velocity of 1750fps.




Again 1moa at 200yrds is 2"....2.79moa is like 5.8"ish at the 2400fps velocity. Very close to the 6" of drop you reported.....Click values of your scope can be more or less than advertised. You can check the value by doing a tall target test and a little math.
 

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I used Bryan Litz listed BC which happens to be the same as Hornady list.....I used your environmentals that you used on screen shots. It matches up, other than yours shows 2.79moa and mine shows 2.80moa. In the real world you probably can't shoot that with a AR.

First row is inches of drop from a 100yrd zero at 2400FPS.
 

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OMG! Rivervalley, I hope you now realize you haven't been dealing with someone that has lost his mind, you have been dealing with an idiot. You're right, why I wasn't dividing my 200 drop.... Probably because I was so stupid and was treating my hold over as drop....

I'm sorry for wasting your time however I real do appreciate you showing me my errors. Looks like hornady's load data is spot on.
I really do appreciate everyone's help very much and in all have had fun troubleshooting and spending money on new parts to find out my gun is working great.
Thank you everyone for your help!
 

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OMG! Rivervalley, I hope you now realize you haven't been dealing with someone that has lost his mind, you have been dealing with an idiot. You're right, why I wasn't dividing my 200 drop.... Probably because I was so stupid and was treating my hold over as drop....

I'm sorry for wasting your time however I real do appreciate you showing me my errors. Looks like hornady's load data is spot on.
I really do appreciate everyone's help very much and in all have had fun troubleshooting and spending money on new parts to find out my gun is working great.
Thank you everyone for your help!
I'm just glad you didn't have to tear your gun apart. Lol
 
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