This is new to you but not new to us. Somewhere else here, today, I read someone's post about how it would take an army for the Feds to collect the FFL info. I've seen 280 images per minute scanners so it would only take 15 minutes at each FFL to get their bound book scanned, OCR'd, and into the database. Add 2 days to the process if the books get sent to HQ first.
any of you aware of the belated federal gun registry?
https://www.thetrace.org/2016/08/atf-non-searchable-databases/
https://www.atf.gov/file/58616/download
THe reason I titled it that way was because this is a defacto after the fact centralized federal gun registry inside the ATF NTC under sub-catagory the NTC’s Out-of-BusinessRecords Center
any time a FFL dealer goes out of business they are required to turn over all transactions etc to the "NTC’s Out-of-BusinessRecords Center" so every gun that was sold is then registered in one centralized location. So they know who bought what.
This is important to know because this is the database that will be used to confiscate firearms on massive scale..
This database is the "Gun registry" everyone is afraid of the government possessing. It would not take much to make new federal law as part of the "more comprehensive background check" To allow unlimited access from all levels to access.
My understanding is the only real reason NRA has not fought this touth and nail was at the time it was set up it was promised that only the ATF would have access, no one else.
I learned about this at the time that the gun dealer I bought my firearm from went out of business, and learned that my firearm was then part of a federal registry that was suppose to be explicitly forbidden under federal laws and constitutional law. ,. But was allwed due to the obscurity and lack of understanding by the public.
What they don't know won't hurt them. croud
Quote: from the trace
How did the ATF skirt the rules meant to guard against searchability? Many ATF traces are conducted on guns sold by active dealers. The ATF gives servers to these dealers, upon request, so that they can upload sales records. This saves both parties time: The ATF can conduct a trace without contacting a dealer in every instance, and the dealer need not spend time handling ATF requests.
When a dealer with a server goes out of business, it hands over that server to the ATF. From 2000 to 2016, the ATF consolidated all the data from these defunct servers into one. But the agency is not permitted to combine records in this fashion, the GAO determined.
Chastened, the ATF deleted all 252 million records on the server.
end quote
I highly doubt they actually destroyed the records.
https://www.atf.gov/file/58616/download
THe reason I titled it that way was because this is a defacto after the fact centralized federal gun registry inside the ATF NTC under sub-catagory the NTC’s Out-of-BusinessRecords Center
any time a FFL dealer goes out of business they are required to turn over all transactions etc to the "NTC’s Out-of-BusinessRecords Center" so every gun that was sold is then registered in one centralized location. So they know who bought what.
This is important to know because this is the database that will be used to confiscate firearms on massive scale..
This database is the "Gun registry" everyone is afraid of the government possessing. It would not take much to make new federal law as part of the "more comprehensive background check" To allow unlimited access from all levels to access.
My understanding is the only real reason NRA has not fought this touth and nail was at the time it was set up it was promised that only the ATF would have access, no one else.
I learned about this at the time that the gun dealer I bought my firearm from went out of business, and learned that my firearm was then part of a federal registry that was suppose to be explicitly forbidden under federal laws and constitutional law. ,. But was allwed due to the obscurity and lack of understanding by the public.
What they don't know won't hurt them. croud
Quote: from the trace
How did the ATF skirt the rules meant to guard against searchability? Many ATF traces are conducted on guns sold by active dealers. The ATF gives servers to these dealers, upon request, so that they can upload sales records. This saves both parties time: The ATF can conduct a trace without contacting a dealer in every instance, and the dealer need not spend time handling ATF requests.
When a dealer with a server goes out of business, it hands over that server to the ATF. From 2000 to 2016, the ATF consolidated all the data from these defunct servers into one. But the agency is not permitted to combine records in this fashion, the GAO determined.
Chastened, the ATF deleted all 252 million records on the server.
end quote
I highly doubt they actually destroyed the records.
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Sorry..............you need to watch the last minute of Indiana Jones where they wheel the Ark into some vast cavernous warehouse to be lost forever. When I turned in my records in the mid 80s, they went "somewhere" and I can guarantee you they weren't scanned or computerized.https://www.thetrace.org/2016/08/atf-non-searchable-databases/
https://www.atf.gov/file/58616/download
THe reason I titled it that way was because this is a defacto after the fact centralized federal gun registry inside the ATF NTC under sub-catagory the NTC’s Out-of-BusinessRecords Center
any time a FFL dealer goes out of business they are required to turn over all transactions etc to the "NTC’s Out-of-BusinessRecords Center" so every gun that was sold is then registered in one centralized location. So they know who bought what.
This is important to know because this is the database that will be used to confiscate firearms on massive scale..
This database is the "Gun registry" everyone is afraid of the government possessing. It would not take much to make new federal law as part of the "more comprehensive background check" To allow unlimited access from all levels to access.
My understanding is the only real reason NRA has not fought this touth and nail was at the time it was set up it was promised that only the ATF would have access, no one else.
I learned about this at the time that the gun dealer I bought my firearm from went out of business, and learned that my firearm was then part of a federal registry that was suppose to be explicitly forbidden under federal laws and constitutional law. ,. But was allwed due to the obscurity and lack of understanding by the public.
What they don't know won't hurt them. croud
Quote: from the trace
How did the ATF skirt the rules meant to guard against searchability?
Many ATF traces are conducted on guns sold by active dealers. The ATF gives servers to these dealers, upon request, so that they can upload sales records. This saves both parties time: The ATF can conduct a trace without contacting a dealer in every instance, and the dealer need not spend time handling ATF requests.
When a dealer with a server goes out of business, it hands over that server to the ATF. From 2000 to 2016, the ATF consolidated all the data from these defunct servers into one. But the agency is not permitted to combine records in this fashion, the GAO determined.
Chastened, the ATF deleted all 252 million records on the server.
end quote
I highly doubt they actually destroyed the records.
This is part of the reason why liberals are pushing for universal background checks. If every transfer had to go through an FFL, after XX number of years, the government would eventually know where every firearm was and who owned what. The "I sold it to a guy at a gun show" excuse would no longer fly, because there wouldn't be a record of that transfer.
Another reason is simply to make it more difficult and costly for gun owners. As they keep piling on the laws and regulations, eventually we will end up breaking one law if we do and break another law if we don't.
Another reason is simply to make it more difficult and costly for gun owners. As they keep piling on the laws and regulations, eventually we will end up breaking one law if we do and break another law if we don't.
About 6 years ago when my dad passed away we had to turn over all his 4473 forms from his shop. His shop was small and when we gathered them altogether there was a PU truck load of boxes full of forms. These dated back to when he first went into business before the NICS check when the forms were yellow. Back then i used to buy a lot of guns because i got them at cost. I thumbed through a bunch of boxes and seen my name a few times. I don't have any of those guns anymore, the only ones i have from back then are ones my father had given me. I sold some back through the shop, others were sold or traded to friends. How many guns do most people keep and how many gun shops close down and turn them in. Also gun shops only have to keep them for a certain amount of time(20 years) and then they can start disposing of them but many keep them all because they are afraid of the ATF even when following the law. I hear a story around here often about a shop that went of out business and he had kept his forms in a shed. Animals got in there, made nests and urinated of them and at some point the roof leaked. They were all trashed being they weren't salvageable. What I'm trying to say is your national gun registry is only comprised of a small amount of guns that are out there to mostly people who don't own them anymore. If it's 25% accurate from the forms turned over i would be surprised.
After so many years, those records can be destroyed by the dealer
@levant It is not new to me, just seeing how many other people know about it and spreading the info. It was first run by tinfoil hat groups. SO I am not sure many gun owners would actually know about it. especially considering the average gun owner is busy and may not have time to read all the news etc. especially ones that are being run by tinfoil hat groups like infowars.
The reason its important is the left been trying to push laws where the previous owner of guns used in shootings etc would be held liable both criminally and financially. how do you think they are going to figure out who the previous gun owner is?About 6 years ago when my dad passed away we had to turn over all his 4473 forms from his shop. His shop was small and when we gathered them altogether there was a PU truck load of boxes full of forms. These dated back to when he first went into business before the NICS check when the forms were yellow. Back then i used to buy a lot of guns because i got them at cost. I thumbed through a bunch of boxes and seen my name a few times. I don't have any of those guns anymore, the only ones i have from back then are ones my father had given me. I sold some back through the shop, others were sold or traded to friends. How many guns do most people keep and how many gun shops close down and turn them in. Also gun shops only have to keep them for a certain amount of time(20 years) and then they can start disposing of them but many keep them all because they are afraid of the ATF even when following the law. I hear a story around here often about a shop that went of out business and he had kept his forms in a shed. Animals got in there, made nests and urinated of them and at some point the roof leaked. They were all trashed being they weren't salvageable. What I'm trying to say is your national gun registry is only comprised of a small amount of guns that are out there to mostly people who don't own them anymore. If it's 25% accurate from the forms turned over i would be surprised.
This database is how. when there is no official registry.
The data trail may be incomplete but it has the first owner always. its part of the trail to track where the firearm winds up. in their attempt to get the person who used the gun they want to also lay some of the blame at other people feet that may of had nothing at all to do with the crimes.
https://thecrimereport.org/2019/04/29/stolen-guns-whos-responsible/
As much as I don't like what this article is implying about who is responsible Like the owner of a car with a NRA sticker in the window going into a gun free zone. Then leaving their firearm unsecured inside the vehicle. Where thieves are targeting that car for theft in hopes of finding a gun. Who is at fault? And who is going to be held responsible for the improper use of the firearm.
This database would pin it on you where without it they would not know and thus you escape being a scapegoat.
https://thecrimereport.org/2019/04/29/stolen-guns-whos-responsible/
As much as I don't like what this article is implying about who is responsible Like the owner of a car with a NRA sticker in the window going into a gun free zone. Then leaving their firearm unsecured inside the vehicle. Where thieves are targeting that car for theft in hopes of finding a gun. Who is at fault? And who is going to be held responsible for the improper use of the firearm.
This database would pin it on you where without it they would not know and thus you escape being a scapegoat.
Dude! This rule has been in effect for the last 50 years. Why all the hyperventilation at this late date?
The reason its important is the left been trying to push laws where the previous owner of guns used in shootings etc would be held liable both criminally and financially. how do you think they are going to figure out who the previous gun owner is?
This database is how. when there is no official registry.
They can already trace that info now, the only difference is it's a manual process but it can be done fairly quickly. Many times in these high profile shootings they know within a day who the gun was sold to and begin it's trace if they weren't the original buyer. The manufacturer tells them what distributor it went to, the distributor tells them what gun shop it went to and from there they search the 4473 forms. Depending on how good the shops keeps their records they usually only have to look through a box or so of 4473 forms as long as they have some good dates to work with. They have been doing this for many many years now.
That would be false. Completely false.After so many years, those records can be destroyed by the dealer
I haven't quit hyperventilating over it in 50 years.Dude! This rule has been in effect for the last 50 years. Why all the hyperventilation at this late date?
§ 478.129 Record retention.That would be false. Completely false.
(a) Records prior to Act. Licensed importers and licensed manufacturers may dispose of records of sale or other disposition of firearms prior to December 16, 1968. Licensed dealers and licensed collectors may dispose of all records of firearms transactions that occurred prior to December 16, 1968.
(b) Firearms transaction record. Licensees shall retain each Form 4473 and Form 4473(LV) for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of sale or disposition. Where a licensee has initiated a NICS check for a proposed firearms transaction, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm is not made, the licensee shall record any
transaction number on the Form 4473, and retain the Form 4473 for a period of not less than 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry. Forms 4473 shall be retained in the licensee’s records as provided in §478.124(b): Provided, That Forms 4473 with respect to which a sale, delivery or transfer did not take place shall be separately retained in alphabetical (by name of transferee) or chronological (by date of transferee’s certification) order.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2011-title27-vol3/pdf/CFR-2011-title27-vol3-sec478-129.pdf
No it is absolutely true. After a certain length of time -( IIRC, it is 20 years), a dealer can destroy those recordsThat would be false. Completely false.
IMHO, they should change the law from 20 years to 7 years. If someone hasn't broken a law in 7 years, it highly unlikely they will go full retard after 7 years.§ 478.129 Record retention.
(a) Records prior to Act. Licensed importers and licensed manufacturers may dispose of records of sale or other disposition of firearms prior to December 16, 1968. Licensed dealers and licensed collectors may dispose of all records of firearms transactions that occurred prior to December 16, 1968.
(b) Firearms transaction record. Licensees shall retain each Form 4473 and Form 4473(LV) for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of sale or disposition. Where a licensee has initiated a NICS check for a proposed firearms transaction, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm is not made, the licensee shall record any
transaction number on the Form 4473, and retain the Form 4473 for a period of not less than 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry. Forms 4473 shall be retained in the licensee’s records as provided in §478.124(b): Provided, That Forms 4473 with respect to which a sale, delivery or transfer did not take place shall be separately retained in alphabetical (by name of transferee) or chronological (by date of transferee’s certification) order.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2011-title27-vol3/pdf/CFR-2011-title27-vol3-sec478-129.pdf
My mistake. That's why I post so many links because when I look schiff up I don't make so many mistakes. Should have looked this one up.
Not the database That the ATF was told to destroy that ones relatively recent. Nor the part about being able to trace using current FFL dealer records, by digitizing the files. ETC. and now with El Paso you can dang well bet they will push this as part of the universal background check and make it legal somehow by increments.Dude! This rule has been in effect for the last 50 years. Why all the hyperventilation at this late date?
That is how that database came into existence in the first place. where the records wound up on a centralized searchable server.
THe hyperventilating as you assume I am doing, is related to the fact that people like me are the ones blamed first for the actions of others when people like me are actually the least likely to actually commit an act like that. But because people like me have the least voice to be heard by the masses and the least strength to enforce our views. we suffer at the hands of those who do not want to admit to themselves that its people like them that are most likely to commit such an act.
Then there is the war times patriot act. and similar laws that may or may not allow them to keep those records but you and I would not hear about it unless someone whistle blew on the issue.
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/09/us/nationalspecial/police-begin-seizing-guns-of-civilians.html here is a prime example of what happens when an emergency is declared. where the common folks like us were actively disarmed while guards etc where allowed to carry. as a commoner this is a scenario you do not want happening when it hits the fan
I don't think you're understanding how it works. The ATF is supposed to destroy to records for BG checks when they come in. Not sure if they really do but they can't search anything except that you bought a long gun, handgun or other even if they did keep them. When a NICS is done the make model and serial number are NOT called in, just your personal info. The make,model and serial number are recorded on the 4473 form. If the ATF is tracing a gun they have to go to where it was sold and manually search those forms. Those forms can be destroyed after the gun shop holds them for 20 years and they also have to turn in any forms they still have when they go out of business. The data base you speak of is there but it's relatively small when compared to the guns out there. Think about all the guns sold before the 4473 forms came about. Think of all the forms that get destroyed after 20 years and then think about how many people actually keep all the guns they buy compared to how many get resold. Like i said earlier if their small database is 25% correct i would be highly surprised. None of this is anything new, this has been done for man many years now.
I was referring to the going out of business records and the manipulation of those records where it makes it to easy when its all centralized digitally.I don't think you're understanding how it works. The ATF is supposed to destroy to records for BG checks when they come in. Not sure if they really do but they can't search anything except that you bought a long gun, handgun or other even if they did keep them. When a NICS is done the make model and serial number are NOT called in, just your personal info. The make,model and serial number are recorded on the 4473 form. If the ATF is tracing a gun they have to go to where it was sold and manually search those forms. Those forms can be destroyed after the gun shop holds them for 20 years and they also have to turn in any forms they still have when they go out of business. The data base you speak of is there but it's relatively small when compared to the guns out there. Think about all the guns sold before the 4473 forms came about. Think of all the forms that get destroyed after 20 years and then think about how many people actually keep all the guns they buy compared to how many get resold. Like i said earlier if their small database is 25% correct i would be highly surprised. None of this is anything new, this has been done for man many years now.
THe leg work method is better because in the event of our government going rouge the FFL dealers can be patriotic and burn those records. Or the officers involved in the leg work of tracking down said records could refuse. Like the sheriffs in colorado refused. But if its all centralized you only need a key few people who do not care about your rights or whether you live or not to ruin it all for everyone or even don't care about your loss of due process.
how records are kept does matter but we were talking to different things here . when it comes time to track down the fire arms history and who might currently have it. or who previously had it.
mine was bought after the form from gander mountain that went out of business. 2 or 3 years after I bought it.
Why do you think they use drone warfare now instead of troops on the ground. less "I will not follow an illegal order"
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
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