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Salmon Slayer
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One theory is that an attorney can claim that you intended to load ammo that is hotter than factory ammo, therefore more deadly, therefore, you had intent to kill and to ensure that the guy you shoot is killed.

Another is that if you use a handload, it's not really possible to determine the exact power of the load and therefore, ballistics measures about distance away from the victim and other scientific proofs have to be tossed out the window.

In the link I posted above, I believe the case focused on gunpowder residue on a victim which suggested that the individual was NOT a suicide victim but was murdered by the defendant.

--Wag--


:unsure:

While it may be their thought that we hand-loaders are premeditating murder, in my case I load down to mitigate recoil in my arthritis hands. I encourage them to check my reloads because they are less powerful than factory ammo.
They are grasping at straws when they enlist that BS logic.
 

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Salmon Slayer
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984 Posts
Many many places require you to identify yourself to LE if stopped with only "reasonable suspicion."
This advice will ONLY make things worse.
You are who you are.
Be aware of identification requirements in each jurisdiction you may be present in.
The way things are going, at least here in Washington State, a new law muzzles the LEO's on "reasonable suspicion AND probable cause"... 🤬🤬🤬 Marxist tactics.
 

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Super Moderator
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While it may be their thought that we hand-loaders are premeditating murder, in my case I load down to mitigate recoil in my arthritis hands. I encourage them to check my reloads because they are less powerful than factory ammo.

They are grasping at straws when they enlist that BS logic.
With that said, you may be able to help mitigate if you keep track of the loads you build and how you did it.

My opinion of the subject has changed over the years in spite of the two or three anecdotal cases I've read about it. The short version is, if I have handloads in my gun and they keep me alive, I'll have to take whatever the jury hands me in open court.

--Wag--
 

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Salmon Slayer
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984 Posts
With that said, you may be able to help mitigate if you keep track of the loads you build and how you did it.

My opinion of the subject has changed over the years in spite of the two or three anecdotal cases I've read about it. The short version is, if I have handloads in my gun and they keep me alive, I'll have to take whatever the jury hands me in open court.

--Wag--
I keep records in my safe with dates of the latest loads (SD & practice loads) that I have on hand. I've either shot or pulled down the lot that I've previously loaded that I will not shoot due to the excessive recoil.
I've also printed out the five-point checklist from Massad Ayoob and Tips for communicating with Police after shootings by Kevin Davis. These guides will be used for family discussion to get everyone on the same page.

Many thanks to the OP for posting this valuable information!
 

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You have the RIGHT to have a lawyer present during any and all questioning. USE THAT RIGHT!!!! Simply put... No lawyer, no answers. Nothing! Not even your name. The only thing you say till you talk to your lawyer is " I want my lawyer. "

You know it makes you look guilty that you won't talk to us with out a lawyer. That is BULLSHIT!!!! Demanding your RIGHTS is one of the very few things that can not be used against you.

The police are NOT your friends. Even if you know the cop and he is your friend in his official capacity he IS NOT your friend. Any trick they can think of they will use.
You have the RIGHT to have a lawyer present during any and all questioning. USE THAT RIGHT!!!! Simply put... No lawyer, no answers. Nothing! Not even your name. The only thing you say till you talk to your lawyer is " I want my lawyer. "

You know it makes you look guilty that you won't talk to us with out a lawyer. That is BULLSHIT!!!! Demanding your RIGHTS is one of the very few things that can not be used against you.

The police are NOT your friends. Even if you know the cop and he is your friend in his official capacity he IS NOT your friend. Any trick they can think of they will use.


Absolutely right on target!
First call,... the police to tell them someone committed a violent crime against you or someone else.
Second call,...your lawyer.
When the police arrive they are going to take your gun, and probably place you in custody until things get "sorted out". It is okay to tell them your name, which direction the other perpetrators (if any) ran off in, how many you saw, a general description of what they looked like (if you can remember any of them other than the guy you shot, you get tunnel vision in this type of threatening situation), even hand them your ID/driver's lic, but you have to be VERY careful not to make any definitive statements in those following moments of elevated stress. Making a "statement" when the adrenaline is still running is not a really good idea. Adrenaline reduces cognitive function of the brain...cop asks you a question, your mouth responds, then all of a sudden your brain catches up and you say "Wait, that's not what I meant.". Oops! Too late...that's what you said.
Better to simply make mental note of all the details that you can recall, and everything that is now happening around you. Politely decline to answer any questions until your lawyer arrives. The police will probably take you "downtown" to try and "encourage" you to make a statement,...DON'T!!! It won't be a pleasant experience, but be patient and wait for your lawyer.
 

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Last Stand on Earth
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5,768 Posts
One theory is that an attorney can claim that you intended to load ammo that is hotter than factory ammo, therefore more deadly, therefore, you had intent to kill and to ensure that the guy you shoot is killed.

Another is that if you use a handload, it's not really possible to determine the exact power of the load and therefore, ballistics measures about distance away from the victim and other scientific proofs have to be tossed out the window.

In the link I posted above, I believe the case focused on gunpowder residue on a victim which suggested that the individual was NOT a suicide victim but was murdered by the defendant.

--Wag--
There was a lot of scrutiny in this post that criticized this advice. One thing we learned from the Rittenhouse trial, the DA will absolutely use your choice of ammo against you.
 

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I decided to give this a try
Just had to pay shipping and wait (It took awhile to arrive)
By Attorney Andrew F. Branca
Forward by Massad Ayoob
Have yet to read it. Skimming over it it appears to be an interesting read.
"nothing in this book constitutes legal advice, but we live in a madly litigious society so i will say it anyway: nothing in this book constitutes legal advice.
 
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Very simple, Only 2 statements made, to lead investigator or DA or anyone else on scene "I was In FEAR for my life" "I want My Attorney" Nothing else should be said. "After the Shooting" As an instructor, trainer these should be drilled into the students. YES officers are listening, any utterance good, bad or in different will be levied against you. Only 2 things the shooter should say "I WAS IN FEAR OF MY LIFE" I WANT MY ATTORNEY" pretty much in that order. Cops/Investigators are trained to try and invoke or obtain incriminating evidence Period, Your ATTORNEY on the other hand is trained to DEFEND YOU. yes our system is crooked, broken and used against the innocent.
 

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I keep records in my safe with dates of the latest loads (SD & practice loads) that I have on hand. I've either shot or pulled down the lot that I've previously loaded that I will not shoot due to the excessive recoil.
I've also printed out the five-point checklist from Massad Ayoob and Tips for communicating with Police after shootings by Kevin Davis. These guides will be used for family discussion to get everyone on the same page.

Many thanks to the OP for posting this valuable information!
I use a chronograph and test new loads & check old loads. This way I don't load any "suspect" loads. fwiw


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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Salmon Slayer
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I use a chronograph and test new loads & check old loads. This way I don't load any "suspect" loads. fwiw


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
For SD I load 10% below max charges since I don’t own a chrono. Range ammo is reduced recoil rounds.
 

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You have the RIGHT to have a lawyer present during any and all questioning. USE THAT RIGHT!!!! Simply put... No lawyer, no answers. Nothing! Not even your name. The only thing you say till you talk to your lawyer is " I want my lawyer. "

You know it makes you look guilty that you won't talk to us with out a lawyer. That is BULLSHIT!!!! Demanding your RIGHTS is one of the very few things that can not be used against you.

The police are NOT your friends. Even if you know the cop and he is your friend in his official capacity he IS NOT your friend. Any trick they can think of they will use.
The cop couldn't be your friend even if he wanted to. I am willing to be corrected but I think they can only be a witness for the state/prosecution.
 
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