National Gun Forum banner

21 - 40 of 40 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
53 Posts
As a fairly new firearms enthusiast what bothers me is the armchair warriors . Even in self defense the idea of shooting someone is a horrific idea and I could only assume traumatizing . Some people are under the delusion they are in the wild west and they practice to the point of absurdity for something the odds of happening are slim to none . I have nothing against people training or how to use their firearms better . My issue is the mentality of the "gun warrior" maybe to many video games or movies . Anyways off my soap box now .
 

·
Ancient Gaseous Emanation
Joined
·
54,575 Posts
Discussion Starter #23
Establish the active dynamic.

Advise the police that you will sign the complaint.


Popeye, in that order ?
That's what Mr. Massad Ayoob, a more experienced man than I, recommends in the article.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Joey Santiago

·
Banned
Joined
·
291 Posts
OK, good to know I shall now add that to my cheat sheet behind my drivers licence.
Thank You for the quick response.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,791 Posts
In any situation where I am involved and police questioning I remain I ask for a Lawyer and button my lip. CFS Child Family Services found out, I aint playing. As soon as I asked for COURT DATE and Lawyer advise Case CLOSED. One can not talk to anyone these days without someone twisting it to "FIT THEIR AGENDA"
 

·
Barney
Joined
·
156 Posts
One thing that people don't talk about when they are advising others what is going to happen and what to do after a shooting is the law suits. Two things to remember there, you are going to get sued, and it is going to cost you a lot of time, misery, and money. Also, the burden of proof is much less in a law suit than it is for a criminal trial. So be prepared. They go on for years.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,299 Posts
That "court backlog"? It's actually called "job security" for all the members and players in the "Law Club" community, and they create it. For the lawyers, it's all about "billable hours". All law suits are this way. And just be informed, "they" - the law community players - have an almost 100% certainty as to how it will all play out. Trust me on the "billable hours" thingy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,545 Posts
One other thing the author is big on is using factory ammo in your defense weapon. His claim is that if you use re-loads a prosecutor will use that against you, meaning you specifically made ammo to kill people.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
77 Posts
One other thing the author is big on is using factory ammo in your defense weapon. His claim is that if you use re-loads a prosecutor will use that against you, meaning you specifically made ammo to kill people.
I would like to know just (1) case where an otherwise lawful shooting was deemed unlawful simply because someone used personal hand loaded ammo.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,515 Posts
One theory is that an attorney can claim that you intended to load ammo that is hotter than factory ammo, therefore more deadly, therefore, you had intent to kill and to ensure that the guy you shoot is killed.

Another is that if you use a handload, it's not really possible to determine the exact power of the load and therefore, ballistics measures about distance away from the victim and other scientific proofs have to be tossed out the window.

In the link I posted above, I believe the case focused on gunpowder residue on a victim which suggested that the individual was NOT a suicide victim but was murdered by the defendant.

--Wag--
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,113 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
409 Posts
Massad Ayoob
March 9, 2017


Never forget that when you shoot someone, however necessarily and justifiably, you look an awful lot like a killer and he looks an awful lot like a victim. The stereotype can take hold quickly if you don’t act to let the authorities – from the first responding officer to the designated lead investigator – know what happened. The old saying “You only get one chance to make a first impression” is absolutely true here.

Decades ago, I developed a five-point checklist of things I feel the righteous shooter needs to establish as soon as possible in the aftermath. It has been widely adopted, sometimes with attribution and sometimes without, and is now recommended by entities ranging from the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network to the US Concealed Carry Association. I’m rather proud of that.

Five-Point Checklist

Establish the active dynamic.
That is, let the authorities know immediately what happened here. If you have harmed someone in self-defense, always remember that the active dynamic is not what you did to him, it’s what he was trying to do to you or another victim. The active dynamic is his action that forced your lawful response. It’s not, “I shot him.” It’s, “This man tried to kill me.” Or, “This man attacked my wife.” Whatever it was that led to your use of force.This makes it clear that the guy on the ground doing a convincing imitation of a victim is in fact the criminal perpetrator. It makes it clear that you, the person with the smoking gun who just shot someone, are in fact the intended victim. If one or more of your attackers has left the scene, explain that now, and give their description. It’s going to be hard for people to see you as the innocent party if you failed to let police know that a violent criminal was at large.

Advise the police that you will sign the complaint. There are two roles open in this particular play: victim and perpetrator. As noted, appearances can create mistaken role reversal if things aren’t immediately clarified. By making a statement to the police to the effect of “I will sign the complaint,” you reinforce the fact that you are the victim-complainant, the good guy or gal, and the person you’re signing the complaint on is the bad guy who forced you to harm him in legitimate defense of self or others. (Note: I would not advise using the phrase “I will press charges.” The reason is that legal terminology varies slightly jurisdiction to jurisdiction. While in many jurisdictions it is indeed the complainant who presses charges, there are some places where the local terminology is such that the prosecutor “presses charges.” If you inadvertently find yourself in one of those places and say “I will press charges,” it sounds to the police as if you have delusions of being the elected chief prosecutor, and you won’t be off to a good start. “I will sign the complaint” is neutral and universal.)

Point out the evidence. The scene will be chaotic. Witnesses will be trampling the scene. So will paramedics and police officers. I’ve seen cases of the bad guy’s gun being picked up by his accomplice or by a well-meaning neighbor who didn’t want to leave it where a child could find it. I’ve seen spent casings kicked away from their original resting place, or picked up in the treads of emergency personnel’s boots or the wheels of an ambulance gurney, thus altering the dimensions of the shooting scene and making it look like something it wasn’t. The sooner you point out the evidence to the first responding officers, the more likely it is to be secured. When you’ve done the right thing, evidence helps you.

Point out the witnesses. Witnesses worry about having to lose time from work to testify in court, or being the target for vengeance by criminals. A lot of them “don’t want to get involved.” Once they leave the scene unidentified, their testimony that would have helped to prove your innocence leaves with them. Point out the witnesses to the police at the first opportunity. (Some have asked, “What if the witness is a friend of the attacker and lies about what happened?” The fact is, he was going to do that anyway, so you haven’t lost anything. However, your having pointed him out to the police can be seen as an indication that you believed in your own innocence, or you wouldn’t have steered the police to him, and that can’t hurt.)

Politely decline further questioning until you have consulted an attorney. Studies show that, in the immediate aftermath of a life-threatening encounter, we may forget some things or get some details wrong. The questions to you will come at random as they occur to the officer, and you will answer them in the same order; in reviewing the cop’s notes and his recollection of the discussion later, this can create the false illusion that you were giving a narrative of events in the order in which they occurred, which of course is not the case. But later, when you do narrate events in the sequence of their occurrence, it creates a false perception that you have changed your story. Often, very frightening things that happened are blocked in short term memory by a subconscious that doesn’t want to recall them; when you mention something later that you didn’t mention at the scene, it sounds made up. You don’t want to answer detailed questions as to exact words spoken, distances, or time frames. None of us are human tape recorders. The tunnel vision that afflicts well over half of people caught up in something like a gunfight creates the literal optical illusion that things and people appear closer and larger than they are. If your memory tells you your attacker was six feet away when you shot him but he turns out to have been six yards away, you sound like a liar. Tachypsychia is likewise very common, the sense of things going into slow motion. It seemed to you as if the fight took a whole minute, and you say so, but a security camera shows it was actually only ten seconds, and now you look like a liar. The involved victim who had to fight for his or her very survival is the worst possible witness for measuring things in feet or inches, or counting how many shots were fired.

Experts recommend 24 to 48 hours between one of these “critical incidents,” as they are now euphemistically called in the emergency services, and when the participant is subjected to a detailed debriefing. The Force Science Institute recommends “one full sleep cycle.”

This is why my recommendation – practical advice, not legal advice – is to establish the active dynamic, indicate that you’ll sign the complaint, point out evidence and witnesses known to you…and then stop. Be polite. Do not raise your voice. I for one would answer subsequent questions with, “Officer, you’ll have my full cooperation after I’ve spoken with counsel.”




Concealed Carry: After the Shooting | Gun Digest
Popeye this is going into my handbook, Thankyou
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ziggidy and Popeye

·
Registered
Joined
·
536 Posts
I have CCW Safe. In addition to legal protection, they have a lot of training videos from attorneys who have not only defended a lot of SD cases, they have even done some research on this topic.

Here are some problems and myths:
  • You will not be in your right mind on the scene. I don't care if you have ice water in your veins, you are very likely to say something stupid and not remember facts correctly. SD lawyers have done research on this and put people under simulated shooting situations and then interrogated them. Invariably, the subjects hurt themselves with stuff they blabber. Even cops involved in lethal force situations generally don't give a statement for about 48 hours.
  • Once you start talking, it's easier for cops to get you to keep talking until you say something stupid and they are trained to do that.
  • Contrary to what Ayoob says, you should not care what the cops on the scene think of your guilt. They only decide your immediate fate over the next few hours, not your long term fate.
  • You should not care at all about being arrested, because if the situation is such that you can be arrested, you probably will be arrested. The idea that you can talk your way out of it will only make things worse. Being arrested is the least of your worries.
After the shooting, call 911, remember you are being recorded and give only:
  • Name
  • Location
  • Injuries (not who or what caused them)
  • Then hang up, no matter what the operator says
Before the cops show up:
  • Conceal your gun
  • Call your lawyer or legal plan
  • Have your hands visible
  • Stay on the scene if it is safe. If it is not safe, back off to the nearest safety, hopefully where you can still observe the scene. Do not leave the area unless there is a safety issue
When the responding officers ask what happened:
  • You say only that were in fear for your life and you defended yourself
  • Point out any evidence
  • Point out any witnesses
  • Say that your lawyer has instructed you not to say any more until he is present
Do NOT:
  • Say that you intend to cooperate, because your lawyer may tell you not to cooperate and then you will have contradicted yourself.
  • Say that you will sign a complaint. That is irrelevant on scene.
  • Give any more details. Rather, keep repeating diplomatically that your lawyer has advised you not to say any more until he is present.
That's it. Don't think you are smarter than the situation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Some people goes into shock silence :oops:
 
21 - 40 of 40 Posts
Top