National Gun Forum banner

1 - 20 of 40 Posts

·
Ancient Gaseous Emanation
Joined
·
54,575 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Massad Ayoob
March 9, 2017


Never forget that when you shoot someone, however necessarily and justifiably, you look an awful lot like a killer and he looks an awful lot like a victim. The stereotype can take hold quickly if you don’t act to let the authorities – from the first responding officer to the designated lead investigator – know what happened. The old saying “You only get one chance to make a first impression” is absolutely true here.

Decades ago, I developed a five-point checklist of things I feel the righteous shooter needs to establish as soon as possible in the aftermath. It has been widely adopted, sometimes with attribution and sometimes without, and is now recommended by entities ranging from the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network to the US Concealed Carry Association. I’m rather proud of that.

Five-Point Checklist

Establish the active dynamic. That is, let the authorities know immediately what happened here. If you have harmed someone in self-defense, always remember that the active dynamic is not what you did to him, it’s what he was trying to do to you or another victim. The active dynamic is his action that forced your lawful response. It’s not, “I shot him.” It’s, “This man tried to kill me.” Or, “This man attacked my wife.” Whatever it was that led to your use of force.This makes it clear that the guy on the ground doing a convincing imitation of a victim is in fact the criminal perpetrator. It makes it clear that you, the person with the smoking gun who just shot someone, are in fact the intended victim. If one or more of your attackers has left the scene, explain that now, and give their description. It’s going to be hard for people to see you as the innocent party if you failed to let police know that a violent criminal was at large.

Advise the police that you will sign the complaint. There are two roles open in this particular play: victim and perpetrator. As noted, appearances can create mistaken role reversal if things aren’t immediately clarified. By making a statement to the police to the effect of “I will sign the complaint,” you reinforce the fact that you are the victim-complainant, the good guy or gal, and the person you’re signing the complaint on is the bad guy who forced you to harm him in legitimate defense of self or others. (Note: I would not advise using the phrase “I will press charges.” The reason is that legal terminology varies slightly jurisdiction to jurisdiction. While in many jurisdictions it is indeed the complainant who presses charges, there are some places where the local terminology is such that the prosecutor “presses charges.” If you inadvertently find yourself in one of those places and say “I will press charges,” it sounds to the police as if you have delusions of being the elected chief prosecutor, and you won’t be off to a good start. “I will sign the complaint” is neutral and universal.)

Point out the evidence. The scene will be chaotic. Witnesses will be trampling the scene. So will paramedics and police officers. I’ve seen cases of the bad guy’s gun being picked up by his accomplice or by a well-meaning neighbor who didn’t want to leave it where a child could find it. I’ve seen spent casings kicked away from their original resting place, or picked up in the treads of emergency personnel’s boots or the wheels of an ambulance gurney, thus altering the dimensions of the shooting scene and making it look like something it wasn’t. The sooner you point out the evidence to the first responding officers, the more likely it is to be secured. When you’ve done the right thing, evidence helps you.

Point out the witnesses. Witnesses worry about having to lose time from work to testify in court, or being the target for vengeance by criminals. A lot of them “don’t want to get involved.” Once they leave the scene unidentified, their testimony that would have helped to prove your innocence leaves with them. Point out the witnesses to the police at the first opportunity. (Some have asked, “What if the witness is a friend of the attacker and lies about what happened?” The fact is, he was going to do that anyway, so you haven’t lost anything. However, your having pointed him out to the police can be seen as an indication that you believed in your own innocence, or you wouldn’t have steered the police to him, and that can’t hurt.)

Politely decline further questioning until you have consulted an attorney. Studies show that, in the immediate aftermath of a life-threatening encounter, we may forget some things or get some details wrong. The questions to you will come at random as they occur to the officer, and you will answer them in the same order; in reviewing the cop’s notes and his recollection of the discussion later, this can create the false illusion that you were giving a narrative of events in the order in which they occurred, which of course is not the case. But later, when you do narrate events in the sequence of their occurrence, it creates a false perception that you have changed your story. Often, very frightening things that happened are blocked in short term memory by a subconscious that doesn’t want to recall them; when you mention something later that you didn’t mention at the scene, it sounds made up. You don’t want to answer detailed questions as to exact words spoken, distances, or time frames. None of us are human tape recorders. The tunnel vision that afflicts well over half of people caught up in something like a gunfight creates the literal optical illusion that things and people appear closer and larger than they are. If your memory tells you your attacker was six feet away when you shot him but he turns out to have been six yards away, you sound like a liar. Tachypsychia is likewise very common, the sense of things going into slow motion. It seemed to you as if the fight took a whole minute, and you say so, but a security camera shows it was actually only ten seconds, and now you look like a liar. The involved victim who had to fight for his or her very survival is the worst possible witness for measuring things in feet or inches, or counting how many shots were fired.

Experts recommend 24 to 48 hours between one of these “critical incidents,” as they are now euphemistically called in the emergency services, and when the participant is subjected to a detailed debriefing. The Force Science Institute recommends “one full sleep cycle.”

This is why my recommendation – practical advice, not legal advice – is to establish the active dynamic, indicate that you’ll sign the complaint, point out evidence and witnesses known to you…and then stop. Be polite. Do not raise your voice. I for one would answer subsequent questions with, “Officer, you’ll have my full cooperation after I’ve spoken with counsel.”




https://gundigest.com/concealed-car..._content=930887_EDT_CC170323&utm_medium=email
 

·
Keep calm & return fire!
Joined
·
12,897 Posts
I have huge respect for Mr. Ayoob and believe he's a true asset to the 2A community and while his advice here is extremely sound and we'll intentioned, I believe...God forbid, if I was ever in the unfortunate situation of having to defend myself or my family by taking an others life I would keep my mouth shut tighter than a drum until I had legal representation.

Theres far too much at stake to make a miscalculation in that situation.
 

·
.
Joined
·
5,082 Posts
Good reminder and info. Training and wareness never stops. Great info from a mentor of mine anyway.
There was a recent thread about when you shoot someone. I guess I could go copy my reply and highlite where I professed these same points, but I will just advise all to read above post and absorb and think. Many good articles from author on web. Please read some, I have, and feel better informed for it. This and closely related areas are your "come to Jesus moment" regarding you and self defense actions. Please count on me for non humor, non temper flare, non BS as a sincere member of this fine group, as relates to helping others in this area.
 

·
.
Joined
·
5,082 Posts
I have huge respect for Mr. Ayoob and believe he's a true asset to the 2A community and while his advice here is extremely sound and we'll intentioned, I believe...God forbid, if I was ever in the unfortunate situation of having to defend myself or my family by taking an others life I would keep my mouth shut tighter than a drum until I had legal representation.

Theres far too much at stake to make a miscalculation in that situation.
You (and lot others) are completely understood. But keep in mind, and work it into your thinking, responding report will typically "lead" subsequent investigation(s). Work it into your brain...same as awareness that protected you..."I was protecting my/his)her life...I wish to fully cooperate after talking to a counsel. "
IF you know there's marks on you...ask for ER visit (more come down time)...just embroil basics of OP in your awareness. If your not ER needing, or somebody kidnapped, or who you shot has run away...hard to envision LEO not granting you time to sit and recover. Be sure is heard you ask for it, if you believe you need it, and you will, God forbid.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,452 Posts
You have the RIGHT to have a lawyer present during any and all questioning. USE THAT RIGHT!!!! Simply put... No lawyer, no answers. Nothing! Not even your name. The only thing you say till you talk to your lawyer is " I want my lawyer. "

You know it makes you look guilty that you won't talk to us with out a lawyer. That is BULLSHIT!!!! Demanding your RIGHTS is one of the very few things that can not be used against you.

The police are NOT your friends. Even if you know the cop and he is your friend in his official capacity he IS NOT your friend. Any trick they can think of they will use.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,070 Posts
  • Like
Reactions: haywood

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
You have the RIGHT to have a lawyer present during any and all questioning. USE THAT RIGHT!!!! Simply put... No lawyer, no answers. Nothing! Not even your name. The only thing you say till you talk to your lawyer is " I want my lawyer. "

You know it makes you look guilty that you won't talk to us with out a lawyer. That is BULLSHIT!!!! Demanding your RIGHTS is one of the very few things that can not be used against you.

The police are NOT your friends. Even if you know the cop and he is your friend in his official capacity he IS NOT your friend. Any trick they can think of they will use.
always use the right!
 

·
Aim true !
Joined
·
11,332 Posts
Thanks for the spam Alex!!
 

·
Aim true !
Joined
·
11,332 Posts
Awesome!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
You have the RIGHT to have a lawyer present during any and all questioning. USE THAT RIGHT!!!! Simply put... No lawyer, no answers. Nothing! Not even your name. The only thing you say till you talk to your lawyer is " I want my lawyer. "

You know it makes you look guilty that you won't talk to us with out a lawyer. That is BULLSHIT!!!! Demanding your RIGHTS is one of the very few things that can not be used against you.

The police are NOT your friends. Even if you know the cop and he is your friend in his official capacity he IS NOT your friend. Any trick they can think of they will use.
I cant help but ask what personal experience you have had to say all this?
 

·
Aim true !
Joined
·
11,332 Posts
I cant help but ask what personal experience you have had to say all this?
What Siplace said is exactly what we were told at a US law sheild class.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
The police are NOT your friends.
Unfortunately, many people forget about it. But in many countries, criminals are honored like Robin Hoods - the only people who can resist unfair politics. So sometimes it's really hard to know who is your friend.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
367 Posts
Of course, if you do slip up, make a mistake, get arrested, the prosecutor is going to pull your computer and tell the jury that you were on this site, reading this thread prior to the shooting... So let's just hope it never happens to one of us...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,300 Posts
"I cant help but ask what personal experience you have had to say all this?"

You don't have to have any personal experience to benefit from the experience of others. There's more than adequate proof that no one you have just met - in this case the police - are your "friend". Nor are they on "your side". They investigate until end of shift and then go home. A lawyer, in these instances, is your friend. But you have to pay him for that friendship. About $300 an hour, minimum. Some "friendship", eh?

Try to recall that Mr. Ayoob, who wrote the OP article, has been a uniformed police officer at various stages throughout his life and even teaches some classes to departments. He's been "there" as a "not friend".
 

·
Aim true !
Joined
·
11,332 Posts
'' A lawyer, in these instances, is your friend. But you have to pay him for that friendship. About $300 an hour, minimum. Some "friendship", eh?'' Thus the reason we carry self defense insurance.
 

·
Ancient Gaseous Emanation
Joined
·
54,575 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Tips For Communicating With Police After Shootings

Kevin Davis
June 20, 2017


Properly communicating with police after an incident that involved lethal force will save you trouble in the long run.

Massad Ayoob clearly makes the case for communicating with police early on post incident. His excellent book Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry: 2nd Edition clearly indicates that oftentimes the first person to call the police is construed as the victim. I could not agree more. Further, police often respond to fight calls or incidents where both parties involved claim innocence and insist the other side started it.

If the other party has friends or witnesses and you don’t, expect them to all point the finger at you regardless of your assailant’s guilt. If you have witnesses as well, police will take statements from both sides, but unless there was a bus full of nuns who witnessed the incident, you will likely be treated as a suspect until your innocence is proven by investigators.

You have to understand that police have a very jaundiced eye and that everyone claims innocence. Even suspects with guns or dope found in their pockets exclaim, “Those ain’t my pants!” or “That’s not my gun!” Because of this, uniformed responding officers treat everyone in a shooting as a suspect at first. It is in their vital interest to secure and stabilize the scene.

You need to respectfully articulate, “I am the victim! That man tried to rob me!” or whatever the crime may be. As Mas Ayoob points out stating, “I will sign charges!” is a good thing because many police deal with uncooperative “victims” (usually bad guys themselves) who refuse to prosecute their assailants.

Avoid statements such as, “I didn’t mean to shoot him” or, “The gun just went off…” These types of statements indicate the shooting was not intentional or was accidental, which destroys an intentional self-defense claim later. These types of statements are made by law-abiding citizens who are not used to violence. What they really meant to say was, “I didn’t want to have to shoot him. He left me no choice.” These spontaneous utterances will be recorded by officers in their Action Taken reports or addendums to the investigator’s report and can hurt you later if/when you make an official statement.

Keep your mouth shut except for the following. Officers frequently get in trouble when they shoot their mouth off or make statements indicating anger. It is completely understandable why you might be fairly well upset about a man who just tried to kill you or your family but making statements such as, “F*ck you! You got what you deserved! I hope you f’ing die!” indicate anger to most witnesses. Verbal parting shots as the suspect is wheeled away on a paramedic gurney such as, “See you later sucker!” or similar will not go over well with a possible jury later.

Limit what you say to uniformed police on the scene or to investigators who show up. You do want to clearly state:

  • You are the victim
  • Where any evidence might be located such as empty casings
  • You also want to indicate where you were, where they were and in which direction you and he fired
  • Ask for a “victim advocate”
Most cities have victim advocacy programs that actually help victims of crime. They can provide emergency housing, advise you on the legal process and even provide funds for new deadbolts or a new door, for instance, if you cannot afford them. Victim advocates will “hold your hand” during the trial of your suspect and the involved legal process.

Victim Assistance has been a long supported charity of my wife and mine, because they really help the victims of crime. That said some may be anti-gun, so they may elect not to aid you after a shooting.

Remember that everything you say will be recorded, and anticipate that everything will be captured on video tape as well.


Editor’s Note: This article is an excerpt from Citizen’s Guide to Armed Defense.




https://gundigest.com/handguns/conc..._content=953723_EDT_CC170629&utm_medium=email
 

·
Aim true !
Joined
·
11,332 Posts
We can never have enough education on self defense. Thanks for the post. :thumbsup:
 
1 - 20 of 40 Posts
Top