[Philmo11]

So I’ve got a noob question. When there was a discrepancy between Large Rifle Primers and Large Magnum Rifle Primers in the 500 magnum Trail Boss I loaded, the less powerful of the Primers generated quite a bit more power in the overall loads. Well, I’m seeing something similar between 45 ACP Small Pistol primers and Large Pistol primers using Unique. To the point of being weary of over pressuring the cases.

Only load data for this weight of bullet I could find is for hollow points, I’m using hollow base. The Lee manual says max load 8.2gr to achieve 1015 FPS with a 185gr XTP bullet. The powder manufacturer say the same for Speer HP 185gr.

If I load a Larger primer case to 7.9 I get in the 930’s range, with the Small primers, at 7.5gr (powder reduction) Ive had a few exceeding 1130.

Is this common for you guys? Looks like I’m going to have to separate these, no doubt, I’m just curious if anyone else has noticed this trend.

 

[fixitfred]

I won't voice my opinion on the topic right now. What I want to say will sound like a long winded lecture and may sound condescending. I don't have any direct experience so I'll wait to see what others say.

I will say that I found some things that surprised me and seemed counter intuitive over the years. Many things I can't explain and don't make sense to me.

 

[Coalcracker]

I have not tried unique on semi auto rounds. Only used it for 44 mag and 45 colt. It does well in them. I tried win 231 in 45 colt. Not so good. It made a lot of yellow specs. It got into everything. I had to take the gun apart and clean it.

 

[Philmo11]

I won't voice my opinion on the topic right now. What I want to say will sound like a long winded lecture and may sound condescending. I don't have any direct experience so I'll wait to see what others say.

I will say that I found some things that surprised me and seemed counter intuitive over the years. Many things I can't explain and don't make sense to me.

I can appreciate that. I am still new at this so a lecture may be warranted. I did not start at this power level if that got you irritated. I actually backed off the powder and also tested in a Ruger SAA when I switched over to small primer cases in the event something like this happened, it can handle 44mag pressures.

 

[Philmo11]

I have not tried unique on semi auto rounds. Only used it for 44 mag and 45 colt. It does well in them. I tried win 231 in 45 colt. Not so good. It made a lot of yellow specs. It got into everything. I had to take the gun apart and clean it.

I have other powders but I had really good luck with .357, 9mm and 40 so I thought I’d give it a try.

 

[Stevejet]

The .45 ACP case has such small capacity for powder, I don't think you are going to "over pressure" your loads using Unique. Stick to published/verified "Load Data" from powder sources and reloading manuals. The truly fast burning powders (Bullseye for instance) and their weights bear watching.

You can find many explanations on the internet for velocity and pressure differences that occur with the large and small primer pocket cases in .45 ACP. Because the primer brissance is different between Small and Large pistol primers, and intermix with rifle primers could happen, I'd separate the small from large pocketed brass and treat/load them according to what is appropriately recommended. Better yet, get rid of the small pocketed brass and eliminate the "issue" entirely.

 

[Stevejet]

"I tried win 231 in 45 colt. Not so good. It made a lot of yellow specs."

Powder manufacturers put "colored markers" into some of their powders for easy identification in the factory between powders that look similar. Yellow "markers" are standard, and W231 works wonderfully in my .45 Colt loadings.

 

[Coalcracker]

I had it loaded with 6 grains of 231. Very light recoil. I don't think i was getting enough pressure.

 

[Stevejet]

Did the bullets come out the barrel?

 

[Coalcracker]

Yes and was accurate. They were slower than my 9 grains of unique. The delay time of them hitting steel was noticeable.

 

[Stevejet]

Well, as long as the bullets left the barrel faster than you could see them exit. that's what counts.

 

[Wag]

I've never noticed any difference in loads with small primers vs large primers. Admittedly, I don't use a chrono, however, they all group well on the targets. That's all I really want.

--Wag--

 

[AgedWarrior]

Variations will be influenced more by different cases than by small or large primers. Tests that I have done showed little to no variation in velocities based on primer size with .45 ACP. That said, I really wish they had never started producing the small primer brass because it just means more sorting. I used to just get rid of small primer brass, but now there is just too much of it to ignore.

BTW, I personally prefer Hodgdon Universal over Unique in semi auto loads.

 

[Philmo11]

I've never noticed any difference in loads with small primers vs large primers. Admittedly, I don't use a chrono, however, they all group well on the targets. That's all I really want.

--Wag--

It created 50% more power. I noticed it. I’m going to play with it tomorrow.

 

[Philmo11]

I went ahead and tested CCI against CCI primers. 6 of each. They were a whole lot closer in velocity. Wonder if I got some bad Winchester primers?

 

[AgedWarrior]

I went ahead and tested CCI against CCI primers. 6 of each. They were a whole lot closer in velocity. Wonder if I got some bad Winchester primers?

If you were first comparing Win vs CCI primers then you induced another variable with the different manufacturers. I tested with WSP vs WLP and the velocity difference was very slight; insignificant.

 

[Philmo11]

If you were first comparing Win vs CCI primers then you induced another variable with the different manufacturers. I tested with WSP vs WLP and the velocity difference was very slight; insignificant.

That’s exactly what I did. I still think I must have gotten a bad batch of win primers. No way it should have been that much of a difference. They are now moving faster than the book says they should be. I’ve backed off the grains to get them in the 900-950 range. I made another batch that I’ll try later. I thought I might have had one that didn’t go off in the first batch I tested (win primers) but I brought it back around and when it fired I just figured I must have passed it initially (cylinder and all).

The loads I tested last had a bit too much expansion. Didn’t want to eject freely. Book says 8.2 grains max. No way I’d load them that hot. Even if the case could handle the pressure it would exceed the max bullet speed. As much as they expanded, I’d guess a semiautomatic would probably have ejection issues. I’ll get the recipe where I want it in the strongest built gun I have, when it’s right, I’ll test in other guns.

 

[AgedWarrior]

That’s exactly what I did. I still think I must have gotten a bad batch of win primers. No way it should have been that much of a difference. They are now moving faster than the book says they should be. I’ve backed off the grains to get them in the 900-950 range. I made another batch that I’ll try later. I thought I might have had one that didn’t go off in the first batch I tested (win primers) but I brought it back around and when it fired I just figured I must have passed it initially (cylinder and all).

The loads I tested last had a bit too much expansion. Didn’t want to eject freely. Book says 8.2 grains max. No way I’d load them that hot. Even if the case could handle the pressure it would exceed the max bullet speed. As much as they expanded, I’d guess a semiautomatic would probably have ejection issues. I’ll get the recipe where I want it in the strongest built gun I have, when it’s right, I’ll test in other guns.

So, for the benefit of analyzing, when you noticed the huge difference between small and large primers, what were the brand of small and of large, and what was the head stamp on the cases? I am assuming that COAL and bullet weights were all the same...

 

[Coalcracker]

I had issues with winchester LPP. Not burning all the bluedot powder in 10mm loads. They are supposed to be good for standard and magnum. I tried CCI LP magnum primers then. Burn issue solved.

 

[AgedWarrior]

And I have used WLP’s for .44 mag, .45 colt and 10mm with none of the issues Coal experienced. I have used them with H110, AA#9, H4227, Blue Dot and N110 along with faster powders like Unique and H Universal. Both full power and target loads have worked fine and worked up good in respect to published load data. But, as Coal pointed out YMMV.